Episode 021 - Patrick Fox (Heart of Glass) on digital adoption, serendipity, and the digital divide

In this episode we chat with Heart Of Glass CEO, Patrick Fox.

Heart Of Glass are a St Helens, Merseyside-based collaborative and social arts agency. They work "with artists and community groups, young people, asylum seekers and refugees, LGBTQ+ people, disabled people, older people and communities of all kinds" to "support each other – and learn from each other – on creative journeys of enquiry and exploration."

We chatted about how the organisation's use of digital has shifted over the pandemic, how you can create digital serendipity, the digital divide, and much more

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:11

Hello, and welcome to digital works podcast. The podcast about digital stuff in the cultural sector. My name is Ash and today's episode, episode number 20. One is a conversation with Patrick Fox. Patrick is the CEO of heart of glass and heart of glass are a collaborative and social arts agency based in St. Helens, which is in mercy site in the UK, Patrick. And I talked about loads of stuff, how they have engaged with digital activity over the pandemic, how that's changed their thinking about how they make and share work, the role of digital in community-based practice, uh, how you can create serendipity or not with digital experiences and lots more enjoy. So thank you so much for joining us today, Patrick. Um, and maybe as a start, if you could tell us about heart of glass, what do you do? What is your focus? What is your work involve?

Speaker 2: 1:26

Yeah, so where we're her of glass. We are an agency for collaborative on social arts practice. Um, kind of there's a lot of terminology around those fields of work, but I suppose in a nutshell, what we do is support artists and communities in the broad sense to, um, bring their relevant experiences of the world's knowledge together to create new work together. Um, so the kind of focus is always on the making of work and going on a kind of journey together, usually some sense of, of inquiry or subjects that, um, the kind of artists and community kind of pivots around, um, in order to make new work. So we've been in existence since 2014, we were founded as part of the creative people and places program, which is arts council, England's, um, kind of national action research program. And we've since become part of the national portfolio. Um, and we maintain our membership of the credit people in places network. So we're based in St. Helens in Merseyside, um, which is equally distant between Liverpool and Manchester, kind of post-industrial town of about 180,000 people. Um, that's a big focal point of our work, um, particularly within the creative people and places program, but we also work across the Northwest, um, and increasingly national and international. And, but the kind of focus of our work is, is like I mentioned, supporting artists and communities to go on creative journeys together, um, until for work to be realized in all manner of locations and spaces. Um, and then also looking at the kind of supports that are needed, um, or the kind of professional development gaps the, that might exists for actors who work in this way. Um, I know that nationally within, um, their art sector in, in the UK and indeed internationally, there is a much more of a turn towards a kind of a civic sense of responsibility or work that could be described as kind of activist in nature or kind of small P big P political. So, and quite often our observation is that artists who work in this way normally work in isolation and outside of institutional frameworks. Um, and therefore maybe don't receive the kind of supports that they might need. So a lot of our work also focuses on the kind of critical thinking around this field of work. So what does it mean to make, what does it mean to coauthor work? What does it mean to, to make work in social and community settings? What are some of the professional development gaps that we might need? What are some of the conceptual considerations? So there's a kind of a thinking I'm doing elements to our work. So our kind of mantra is that we don't want to do too much without thinking, or kind of think too much what I'm doing. So we're kind of commissioning work, we're supporting artists, but then we're also kind of hovering above that and asking ourselves what supports could we provide, um, for people who, who choose to work in this way and that everyone from artists to allies, to producers, to other organizations, to partners across the sector, really. So, um, the kind of program breaks down into, into professional development areas, work residencies, uh, conditions, kind of more festival approaches, um, across art forms. So it's, um, very broad range and no two projects at the same. Um, it makes us have to ask interesting questions about audience journey and we're not a venue. So we work in between different spaces and locations in the places that we call homes that can be everything from on the streets and the public round to empty shops, to community centers, to health settings, um, to all kinds of manner of, of, of weird and wonderful locations that we find ourselves in. So, yeah, it's a, it's a, it's a, you know, we're relatively new. Um, although we're probably coming to the point now where we, we can't claim that mantle anymore. Cause we're, we're nearly seven years in existence. Um, so, um, but you know, have been really fortunate to, to work on some really fantastic, brilliant projects with, with the variety of artists and communities and, and kind of feel that we're part of a, or maybe a kind of change or a kind of reckoning in the sector, which acknowledges, um, some of the, some of the limitations or deficits that have existed historically in terms of who gets to be part of the making of meaning, um, and what supports we can put in place to ensure that there is a variety of voices around the table. Um, and that art can be part of, um, I suppose the, the, the, you know, a change discourse, you know, in terms of what tomorrow might look like if we, if we designed it together,

Speaker 1: 5:44

That point is, you know, it's one of the reasons I wanted to chat with you really is the way that you engage with people and communities and artists feels very different. You take a very different approach, um, and it feels like, you know, as you say, you, you work in unusual spaces, you work in abandoned spaces, you've work in sort of commune or spaces, and it feels like maybe I'm wrong, but the idea of serendipity feels quite important to people experiencing your work because they're not in invert, heavy inverted commas, traditional cultural audiences, and you're not performing in again, inverted commerce, traditional cultural spaces. So that idea of happenstance and serendipity and people coming across your work feels important. And I'm interested to hear about a, if that's the case and B how that can start to be moved into it into a digital space, because digital is great lots of things, but it's really terrible at serendipity.

Speaker 2: 6:54

Yeah, it's an interest. I mean, w I mean, I think from, from, from the outset, we've always wanted to be part of, um, the kind of civic life of the place that we call home or, or the context that we find ourselves in, as opposed to the arts world. Um, so that kind of sometimes means that we're at meetings that you kinda think, why am I at this meeting about waste management or town center development, or, you know, we, we kind of find ourselves, you know, going to, to the places or situations that are kind of the topics of interest, um, in, in all of our lives and in our community's lives, as opposed to it being from the point of, um, we're an arts organization that we want to encourage people to come into us. It's much more of a, kind of a, um, kind of meeting people halfway or in the places that they find themselves in. And what's interesting when you work with, um, a long-term research partner with Yukon university, and they kind of have described our kind of audience model, I suppose, as an inverted pyramid of what a traditional arts organization might look like, where, um, you'll notice. And we all know this where you have an arts organization that creates an offer and then tries to encourage people, um, or to think about how they can get a broader sense of, of audience engagement beyond the, kind of the cultural kind of, um, groupings who normally frequent art events or venues. Whereas we're almost the opposite of that in the sense that we kind of don't necessarily have that traditional baseline of arts audience. It really starts from the kind of doughnut ring of who we're making the work with. And then the kind of outer ring of that donor is their friends and families and personal networks. And then the kind of outer ring of that download again, is a more general audience and how we mediate the stories of that work to people beyond the people who are involved in it, really. So it's definitely a different type of challenge. Um, um, but also we're kind of really richly rewarding when, because audience development and connection feels very organic in that way. Um, but it is it's, it's, it definitely flies in the face of some of the more traditional norms of how you reach audiences of people, because we're essentially a moving target. Um, and we're constantly kind of, you know, popping up here there and everywhere. And sometimes there might not be a very obvious threads of what that work is. So people might encounter a heart of glass project, but they'll encounter that project as, um, you know, the, um, the specificity of what that project is. And they might not even relate that back to us as an organization, because what they're encountering is a manifestation of work. Um, and then the other thing I think that is an interesting challenge for us is, um, you know, the old process products debate that looms large and in the arts world is to give us equal value to the making of work as it is to the kind of art object or thing that's made at the end, because quite often for us, and it's a really privileged position to be in the kind of richness is in the relationships and dynamics that sit around the making of work. And that's very hard to make visible, um, because they're quite often personal, they're quite often, you know, if you were to try and create a, kind of a, an aesthetic for that, it would just look like groups of people around the table with cups of tea. And that's not very interesting as a kind of secondary audience member. Um, but it does, it does kind of raise some different, interesting challenges for us about how we can create meaningful engagements with the process of making work as well as the, the end results, um, which I do feel that that digital has a, has a real role to play in for us. Um, and you know, one of the things that we've been interested in, which is something we hope to, to begin to research in, in the kind of coming coming months and years is, you know, quite often I'll get a phone call from someone who says, you know, heard some really interesting stuff about her last coming Coleman and visit. And so they'll come on, you know, a wet Tuesday in April and, uh, nothing's happening. There's nothing to see. Um, so we have been talking a little bit about how we could create some form of kind of archive that could be like almost like a digital overlay of, of our town or the places that we work so that people could encounter, you know, high quality, um, and meaningful documentation or traces of things that happened in different locations. So that if they did come on a, you know, a wet Tuesday and April, that there was still some sense of encounter that they could have, um, as opposed to just the live moment. So there's, there's real opportunities there. I mean, I think, you know, COVID definitely set the cat amongst the pigeons in terms of the engagement aspect of work. Um, but it's also made us think a little bit more about how we create those different, different touch points for people, um, through, through kind of, kind of digital tools.

Speaker 1: 11:42

I mean, obviously from everything you've said and everything I've read, the in-person personal, uh, relationships, networks, experiences that you are a part of are central to your, to your work. Um, and so I don't think you're ever going to be an organization that pivots 100% to digital, and there's all sorts of questions about digital exclusion as well, which we'll get onto in a minute. But what, how is digital useful for you as an organization? I mean, both, I guess, historically prior to March, 2020, and then how has it been, has it been useful for you over the past 18 months?

Speaker 2: 12:24

I mean, it's an interesting one for a minute, but to look at it from a, say, a creative people in places lens to the creative people in places funding is, is geographic specific. So we're looking at the borough of St. Helens and that kind of populace. Um, and obviously when people are engaging digitally, the geographic boundaries are, are kind of, um, less important. So we've been really trying to dig into what would, um, specificity around geography and digital look like, and how could we, how could we make those connections? And, and I don't think we're, we're at a out of solution phase at the moment, but, you know, with things like, um, preexisting groups that exist around, you know, St Helens histories or particular communities of interest, um, or kind of going to two very active, um, kind of forums or online spaces where people from that particular community congregate. Um, but beyond that in our more broader work, I think, you know, we do, we, we do a lot of work that connects to themes or topics where there were very, very, um, visible or tangible communities of interest nationally and internationally. So for example, one of our long-term projects is a, um, podcast series called the mic drop, um, by refugees for refugees. Um, and of course that has a, has a, a reach that is beyond just mercy side. I mean, that, that there are themes and topics that are quite universal to the experience of people seeking refuge and asylum and trying to connect beyond, um, beyond that and think about the channels that we could be, could be promoting work in, in, in that way. So I think, you know, there's, there's a mix. I mean, I think with, with, you know, COVID, what was interesting for us was, you know, we didn't want social distance to mean social retreat. So for us, it was really about maintaining relationships and then really understanding the specific needs of the communities that we were working with. So in some aspects that might have been, um, you know, gaps in digital literacy on what training we could provide or supports we could provide to allow people to have to continue to engage with us or the projects that they were working on. Um, other barriers, you know, felt much more financial that might've been around data packages to support different groups so that they weren't utilizing all of their own kind of, um, limited data resources that they might need for other reasons in their lives, at that, that, you know, participation in their project or engagement, wasn't going to make suddenly digitally vulnerable in another aspect of their life. Um, and you know, all of those, all of those contexts remained and, you know, digital was a really valuable tool for us to maintain those, those connections. Um, and then of course, increasingly we've been presenting work, um, pretty much exclusively online, um, which again, you know, posed another kind of set of challenges for us in terms of, I suppose, giving projects, the space or room to breathe and to find audiences. I mean, to be honest with you, we still have a backlog of digital content that was produced from last year that we're trying to kind of drip feed because, you know, you know, we have a fairly new website, which is great, and it is, is, is, is kind of flexible in terms of output, but, um, we can't just lash everything online and then just hope, you know, it will, it will, it will find, you know, it, it it's it's people or it's audience. It's really just trying to spend time with each of those bits of content that have been created, think about the kind of audience journey who might want to connect with that, and then how they might want to reconnect with us in response to that work. Um, and it's just, it's a, it's a, it's a big job. Um, and something that isn't, um, you know, for an organization of our size, something that we, um, have had to really kind of pivot and reshape capacities around in order to, to be able to do that. But I think what it's done for us is really opened up, um, a real connection between the kind of, and the local and global, um, which can be really, really powerful. And, and to be part of a, a broader community or a broader discourse or a broader Alliance, I think can mean that you can focus on things that are happening in your life or in your locale, and much more solidarity with the experience of others, which actually can be, can be really, um, uh, comforting, but also energizing. Um, I w I was involved many, many years ago in a project in a previous role at fact, in Liverpool, which was, um, an internet television channel, um, run by older people, living in high rise flats across Merseyside. Um, and the project began in 1999, which doesn't feel that long ago, but also was before Facebook, before Twitter, before Instagram, before social media. Um, and, and these residents in their high-rise flats would broadcast, um, discussions and projects online via a thing called real player, um, which was a thumbnail size kind of broadcast, but really bad quality sound video. But the, the act of broadcasting was such a powerful kind of gesture or a suggestion in terms of, of there being a potential audience that are really energized that group of people. And let us some really interesting changes in their lived experience within social housing at the time and accountability for people who were decision makers, who were, you know, um, I remember there was one particular scandal around asbestos, um, in, in some of the Terra blocks. And, and this, the person who was working at the housing association at the time was interviewed live on this project called tenant's bin. And it was broadcast probably for people watching, but the fact that it was said in that domain and was broadcast, it meant that I had a different type of accountability than what it would, if it was in a closed door meeting, um, you know, the minutes were captured properly. It just created another type of, of kind of, um, connection to, to an other, which was really powerful. So I do think that there is, um, something really powerful about that kind of potential of a, of a kind of broader audience or a global audience that, um, is, is a kind of untapped on top of resource and, and also, you know, things, once they exist, they're, they're there for the long term. And, you know, we were having a lot of conversations about revisiting projects or, or, or re spotlighting things, depending on global events or, or kind of discourse that's happening in the kind of site ghost at that particular moment, because it's not finished, you know, those things still have residents and stuff have agency in those conversations, um, which again is a different model, I think, or kind of rhythm of working for arts organizations when you normally, um, work within the cycle of produce outputs, move on. Next thing, next thing, next thing. And I think actually what we're trying to do is build layers of, of, of conversation that kind of add depth and richness. So, um, which is good in one sense, and that you don't feel like you have to capture everything in that one moment. Um, but it also doesn't mean that you have to have a longer term kind of thinking about how you see projects through for the, for the longterm.

Speaker 1: 19:35

And I think that idea of community is it digital, enabling connection beyond the sort of physically close or geographically close communities that exist? You know, that's been a really interesting, um, discourse. It seems to have emerged more strongly over the past year and a half. You know, people mentioning that perhaps I read an article, you know, young people in Bradford, perhaps more, have more in common with young people in Detroit than they do with, you know, young people just up the road in Leeds or somewhere like that. Um, but also as you've said, those community-driven connection driven projects don't have a neat endpoint. And so therefore for organizations like heart of glass, how do you think about that work and think about your archive as a sort of cumulative body of work that needs ongoing attention whilst you're also focusing on the next new thing, is, is that a challenge?

Speaker 2: 20:40

It is a challenge. It is a challenge. And, you know, and I don't think it's something that we, I mean, I think we probably feel across the team a sense of maybe frustration is the wrong word, but a sense that actually, if we had the time and resources and we weren't wedded to the kind of national funding cycles that were wedded to that, we could spend more time with kind of thinking about, about content and work in different ways. But I also, I also think this is, this is a life's work it's, it's, it's longitude and longitudinal, you know, we're, we're not going anywhere. This is, this is about kind of building layers of, of, of meaning. Um, so, you know, in that sense, you know, we've got all the time in the world because actually, you know, this isn't a short-term commitment, you know, some of our projects and there's one project that we're working on, which is a, a 12 year residency. Um, we, you know, we're based where we're based, you know, where we're not, um, we're part of a long-term set of conversations with our communities in many and varied ways. Um, so it's, it's, it's almost like continued conversation, um, as opposed to it being kind of, um, the kind of extraction model of we've done that project that we need to move on to the, to the next group. Um, it's really just about kind of layers and kind of digging in, digging in further. Um, so, so I kind of, I, I personally think of it in a much longer term cycle really about you don't, you could suddenly be building really compelling stories around particular themes or subject over a long period of time. And at different points, there might be reasons to gather that content or that information, or that work that's been created into a body of work and re present it in a different type of way. Um, so, so I think the opportunity always always exists. I think the challenge that we've got within a kind of publicly subsidized Arab world is, you know, rightly or wrongly, um, it's the, it's the shock of the new is the thing that people want to fund. People want to be part of the next story and not, not the continued story. Um, so I think that that is that's the challenge, I think, for the sector to have to reckon with really, um, and also, you know, that, that work, I mean, particularly, I would say socially engaged practice. And then one of the things that I feel really passionate about, particularly around in the kind of digital sphere is that I would argue that socially engaged practice is, is, is, is, you know, the, the kind of the defining practice of our, of, of our times, you know, it's, it's something that more and more artists are choosing to work in this way. We're seeing, you know, things like mainstream things like the Turner prize, all kind of pivoting towards a different type of, kind of artistic labor and rhythm that acknowledges a broader set of values and experiences. And yet that work isn't, it's not collectible. Um, you know, it's not something that when we look through the pages of art history and we see these, these kinds of decades of work, it will be harder to place that work because it's not as easy to capture. So I think that's an interesting challenge for us, because what I would hate to see is when we're retrospectively looking back on some of these projects that they, by virtue of the fact of they're harder to, to see the edges of that they just don't exist in the kind of cannon of, of, of art history. Um, so I think that that is that's, that's an interesting challenge, I think, for this practice, because it's not about a singular voice or a singular experience, it's about multiple different perspectives kind of coalescing into, into, you know, whether that be a performance or an exhibition or a public arts intervention. Um, and everyone's kind of, it's like the beach ball. It's like, if I'm looking at a beach ball and you're looking at a beach ball, you'll see a yellow Stripe and I'll see a red Stripe, but actually we're able to look at it at a distance, we'll see the entire video of the thing. Um, and I think that that's the challenge, I think for socially engaged practice is that, um, there there's so many different views or vantage points that makes it almost an impossible task to capture it in a, in a, in a full way, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. Um, so I think that that is an interesting, it's an interesting challenge that I do think, um, you know, as, as kind of technology and digital tools advanced, and there's more of a, um, you know, that, that type, those technologies or those tools have met the margins more. I think there's more opportunity for us to really kind of fully fully tell, tell stories in a, in a much more, um, poly vocal way than we have in the past.

Speaker 1: 25:14

Yeah. And I think, you know, that is digital is good at capturing and documenting. That is one of the things it lends itself to as a canvas, but something you, you touched on earlier. And I, I sort of want to dig into a bit more is, uh, the idea of digital exclusion, you know, digital can be great for opening up access. It can make cultural experiences, uh, far easier to engage with for lots of different types of people. But also as you've mentioned, for reasons of digital literacy, for reasons of economic barriers, for reasons of, um, you know, sort of social norms, there are barriers to digital engagement, and I'd be interested to hear about your perspective on that. You know, I'm sure you have a much more nuanced and informed perspective on that than, than I do. And also your perspective, if you have one on how we as a sector might go about starting to engage with dismantling some of those barriers.

Speaker 2: 26:16

Yeah. I mean, I, I have some, some, some particular views on that. I mean, I, I think what was interesting about the last, um, not to get too, too politically heavy, but I remember in the last election cycle, one of, uh, you know, a campaign, um, promise was around universal broadband, that that was really, and kind of mainstream media was kind of mocked quite widely. Um, and I remember being on, on kind of, um, calls with cultural sector colleagues and departments, colleagues at the outset of COVID and suddenly this idea of universal broadband as a, as a kind of human rights, um, was on the table again. And it was like, well, actually, you know, it was interesting that couple of years ago that was, that was something that was, uh, a kind of folly and a luxury and, you know, magic money trees and blah, blah, blah. But actually, you know, that is, it is part of, of, of, um, you know, an equality agenda. You know, the fact is is that if you don't have certain tools available to you, there are certain services that you just cannot access, um, regardless of, of the kind of arts and cultural sector. I mean, that's an, that's another and agenda that, that were similar to painlessly having conversations about how we widened participation and engage more people whilst also than not having the really real conversation about what those fundamental barriers are of which, um, digital exclusion is, is one. So I think that, you know, it's, it's, it's, it's a broader conversation that I think needs to be tackled as that is linked to, to kind of democratic deficits and inequality in this country. And, and obviously globally. And, you know, I think that that is something that I think we, as a sector can be much more, um, part of shining a spotlight on. I mean, I think for us in terms of organizationally as a tactic, I think what we've always looked at is, is a kind of, is a, is a mixed ecology. You know, I think we were really, really conscious of the fact that, um, digital is not a kind of catchall, um, audience tool or engagement tool. And actually what's been interesting for us over the last 18 months is looking at increasingly presenting, um, work and opportunities online, but then also going to things like local radio, local newspapers, and having that mix of kind of analog and digital to really try and make sure that the bases are covered, because we're really, really conscious of the fact that there are the barriers that, that you've listed and maybe more that, that to do with specificity of different communities that we might not even be fully aware of around accessibility or, or, or other issues. So I think, you know, there's, there's some interest in, I think there's been an interesting kind of learning moment over the last year, and I'd really like to see that be pulled through into a new version of what normal might look like or a new recognition that actually, you know, social isolation for many, many members of our community, wasn't a new experience in the last year and a half, actually. It was just the, just the more people were involved in the experience. Um, and I think when we're, when we're thinking about building back better, or, you know, I'm doing inverted commerce here for the, for the benefit of the podcast, you know, I think we need to be, to be thinking about, well, who, who doesn't get left behind actually. Um, so, and then even, even further than that, you know, we've, we've been talking a lot about, we have, um, when we do in, in person public events, we have a safer spaces policy, um, which is really just about our kind of commitment to one another and a space together and what X bot behavior is acceptable and what's not, and how, you know, what our kind of code of conduct that we all kind of sign up to, um, whilst interacting with one another and not different, again, online when you're having kind of group meetings and, and, and you're staring at a box on a screen and you, haven't got those kinds of, um, human cues of being like in the queue for the tea and coffee with someone, or, you know, it just feels it can be a very transactional and you can kind of strip away some of the lighter moments that allow you to build connectivity with a group of people. Um, and it's something I've been, I've been super aware of, um, even just on a, on a personal level, but also as we're doing kind of group meetings or workshops online or conferences online that, um, that you have to work harder to allow people to feel like they're part of a, of a collective, um, cause it can, can be, it can feel quite lonely there and your little box kind of staring back at your own kind of avatar and the, in the, in the, in the kind of, you know, the mix of, of 50, a hundred different faces. So there's a lot, there's a lot there actually, but I think that the basics for me is just about is, is let's get access, right? And then think about the layers of different needs. The different communities may or may not have in order to create a level playing field. You know, that is, is, is about equality, but also equity. Um, because if we're, if we're creating further barriers, um, within already systems that, that have, um, exclusion built into them, then that's, that's, that cannot be a good thing. Um, that it has to be something we have to be really, really aware of. Um, but I do think the arts and cultural sector is part of a, of a bigger discourse, but I think we could be better at, um, amplifying some of those, some of those tensions and some of those needs, um, in a much more succinct way.

Speaker 1: 31:32

Yeah, I think, you know, especially as, as we build back better, uh, and digital becomes more a part of every aspect of life, you know, whether that's education, health care, um, you know, shopping for groceries, accessing support services, whatever it might be, it seems like digital is now either the primary wait method of access, or the only way of accessing some of these things that there has to be more universality around access to the internet and it not being a financial burden on households for their children to be able to go to school as it has been over the past 18 months

Speaker 2: 32:10

And it's complex, isn't it? I mean, one of the interesting things that, you know, that has been a real learning for me, and I think for us as an organization is that at the outset of a project, whether that be artists or a community, or whoever's involved, we try and have very, um, rigorous kind of conversations about access needs. And so that could be everything from, you know, the subject matters that might be triggering for someone or a particular access needs that someone, an individual or a group may have. Um, but what was interesting about the digital space is that sometimes those access needs can be in conflict with one another. So, you know, where I remember one instance where we have, um, someone who, who is on a, on a real steep learning curve around digital literacy, who has just got to grips with a particular platform and somebody else who was on another part of the kind of journey of digital literacy, who was interrogating the kind of ethics of that platform and their, and their business operations. So their request as an access need was actually, I don't want to use this platform because I feel that they are part of human rights violations, or they have a very particular kind of, um, history within other, or that kind of, um, social justice or political arenas. Whereas for someone else, it was like, I know how to use this. I feel comfortable with it. I can't the thought of having to learn something else. New is really destabilizing for me. And actually they, they they're completely new considerations, um, for us to, to kind of, um, take on, because there's a lot of kind of low hanging fruit there in terms of platforms that have, are really well-invested in, they've been kind of, you know, tested rigorously. They work they're accessible, but actually if we were to look at it through another lens, um, then they might not be there. They're kind of the platform that you would want to align yourself with, um, kind of values wise or ethically. And I think that that is another, so, I mean, it's, it's, it's, it's a minefield it's complex and it's, I think, um, you know, I think these are some of the conversations that are going to be starting to be hard over the next, um, I would say over the next 12 to 24 months, really, as, as, as we kind of process what's been happening over the last two years. Yeah,

Speaker 1: 34:21

It is. Uh, I think I might know the platform you're referring to there, but they shall remain unnamed, but I want to move, move on to sort of thinking about success and how you measure success, because I would imagine that for your work, the definition of success changes quite significantly from project to project. Have you found also as you've started to do more in a digital space that you've had to sort of rethink the lens through which you, you view success and sort of compile a framework to judge whether or not your work is doing what you want it to?

Speaker 2: 35:01

Yeah, yeah, no, definitely. I mean, there's, there's, there's lots of stuff. I think that will be calm, just how we, how we work now. I mean, we do a, um, an annual conference, um, which has kind of grown year on year since, since we began. And it's, um, typically that the conference is called as called with four votes. Um, so you know, the reason being that we make work with people, for everyone about subjects and themes that are relevant to, to our lives and the conference is normally a chance for us to dig into kind of hot topics that, that are being experienced this field of practice on an annual basis. So it's not, it's not about us, it's not a showcase. It's more about, what's kind of situate in conversations with other people or peers within, within this field of practice and on having conversations together so that we can all kind of learn and grow. And those conferences are typically, um, in-person events. Um, last year, sorry, I don't even know what year we're in now. It was the 20, 20 20 conference. We were just about the week, um, before, before a lockdown. Um, the first lockdown happened, we were about to publish information about, um, the conference that we were presenting that particular year, um, which was going to happen in may. And, um, obviously the world changed and we, and we kind of made a decision overnight with the artists that we were working with on that particular conference to move into a digital space. Um, and it happened all very, very quickly. The kind of broad theme around the conference at the time was around arts and mental health. And, um, and then it became much more expensive to kind of fold in kind of the COVID experience. And, you know, the, the things that worked really well with that conference is that typically we would be able to have hundred hundred and 50 people come to an in-person conference. Um, and that particular conference, which happened episodically over a number of weeks, um, I think at the time had about 800 people participating on a sense kind of been watched by, by more people. And we also created a, a pay what you can system. Um, so the, we were able to involve a lot more international collaborators because we weren't having the burden of huge travel costs. Um, you know, if you're a hosting 150 people, typically the biggest, um, kind of, um, budget lines will be the hosting of 150 people and, you know, lunch and travel and hotels and venue hire. So those things were gone. So what we were able to do was to, um, create that kind of pay as you, as you see fit system, but also to directly say that that was about supporting, um, artists who were contributing and also connecting into other, um, uh, kind of, uh, civil rights organizations. So that basically when you were, whenever you were choosing to pay, which could be nothing, or it could be whatever you felt fit that that money was going directly into, uh, causes that were kind of being, being discussed within the context of the conference. Um, so it was just, it was, it just, it kind of exploded into a much more kind of global community met. We could reach an audience that we wouldn't typically be able to host, um, and it was able to generate resources that were then able to be applied into different situations. So it just felt like a really, um, it felt like a really quick learning experience, but also one that, that, that was, was really beneficial. So, you know, this year's conference and will, will exist online a bit, maybe smaller clusters of, of in-person gatherings that be much more of a blended approach. Um, but I think, you know, that was, that was really exciting for us that we were able to be in real time with, um, communities on artists around the world, having conversations about the universal experience of, of this kind of global moment and what it meant to us in terms of, of, of, um, networks of solidarity or the different experiences or the kind of on equal experience that different communities were, were experiencing through the pandemic. In that it wasn't an equal opportunities offender, that there were different communities who were experiencing, um, you know, this in a much more severe way links to broader sets of, of inequalities that exist within society. So that just felt really, it felt like a really important set of conversations. And I think opens up a different way of us, of us kind of, of working. I think we'll, we'll take forward. Um, and then that's been kind of replicated, but were there other aspects of, of, of work on online? You know, there was a film that we made where group of young people and a filmmaker around their experience of their town center, which was supported by, um, the heritage heritage England, or starting historic England. Um, and that project really connected into themes of what it means to be a young person in this country, what it means to be, um, experiencing your town center, you know, how, you know, regeneration programs and kind of, um, the way that they're being developed and how they, they kind of foreground kind of, um, or prioritize, uh, business or economics and not necessarily thinking about people's experience of, of the place that they call home. And that was able to connect with a much broader set of audiences. Then how do we make that film on a local screening? And because people were able to, to connect into those themes, um, with their own lived experiences in the front of their mind and go, yeah, I understand that experience. And it made the conversation just much more, um, universal, which I think is really exciting, especially if you're, you know, in, in a hyper-local location in St. Helens to suddenly feel the kind of nod of respect or solidarity with someone who's living in, like you mentioned, like in Detroit or somewhere else in the world, um, is, is, is quite a powerful exchange. Really

Speaker 1: 40:57

My last question, which I realize isn't want to worry about in advance, but I I'm, I'm wondering now, as we've been in this moment of being on video calls for 18 months and being at home and not getting to connect with people in the same way and even connect with our work in the same way as we would have done prior to the pandemic, what do you know if we say we are coming out of this forever changed? What do you feel you've learned? What have you had a chance to reflect on, you know, are there going to be things that you do differently? You know, as we move into 20, 22 and beyond this doesn't necessarily need to be in relation to digital, but sort of what are your pandemic lessons?

Speaker 2: 41:41

Oh God, what am I pandemic lessons? Um, the minute that I'm sick staring at my own face, that's probably one pandemic lesson and I'm watching the aging process unfolds over the weeks. And now, I mean, there's, there's, there's lots to read. I mean, let's be honest with you. It kind of feels like we're where, um, we need to sit with that a bit, a bit longer to really think about particularly at an organizational level, what those changes may or may look like. I mean, we've done a lot of stuff. That's been very responsive. Um, you know, we, we did, uh, developed a program of 51 commissions with artists working essentially at their kitchen table and connecting with communities which became this compendium of care, which was a kind of gift by the sector to, to, to the world. And, um, we were much more attuned to what the, the, the kind of the ways in which we can support artists and our kind of operate in, in, in solidarity in a much more direct way. Um, and be a little bit more fleet of foot, I suppose, in that we could, what was really powerful, I think about, um, some of the responses by the, by the cultural sector and more broadly was that people were able to refocus their energy to what was important in the moment as opposed to being wedded to long-term planning cycles. Um, and I think that that is, is I think particularly for an organization like ourselves, which is, you know, instead of as an agency approach, we want to be, uh, in tandem with what's happening and not two years behind, you know, it's, you know, I think that, that when you're working to like exhibition cycles or touring cycles or a theater production cycle that you kind of see in two years time, um, a kind of a reverberation of what was happening in, in a, in a moment now. Whereas I, I feel like we can be much more, um, uh, yeah, in tandem, I suppose. And I think that's something that we'd like to, to hold onto organizationally. And I think, you know, more, more broadly than that, I think, you know, we're, we're all as an organization that has been, like I said, at the top of the conversation interested in, um, you know, there's, there's a terminology that's used in, in disability justice around kind of leadership from the margins. So kind of starting with, with, um, people or groups who, for a variety of reasons are kind of, uh, displaced or marginalized within this society that we find ourselves in. Um, I think what's been interesting and I can't remember who said it now, but someone was saying that that COVID was like a kind of, um, like a scan that just went over over the world and you can kind of really see much more sharply the inequalities that exist within society. Um, and I think we all have a responsibility to, um, yeah, to recognize those inequalities that have been expressed in a much more explicit way and be much active in, in fighting to make sure that those things are dismantled or challenged in, in whatever platform we have. And I think for us as an organization, um, you know, to be much more explicit in terms of our role within change agendas, I think on a very basic level, as well as creating artwork, we're also creating kind of new forms of knowledge and experience of the world. And then those experiences are being communicated. And I think making sure that those experiences, um, and those sets of knowledge are being communicated in forums where they can effect change, feels like an added responsibility really, so that we're not, um, we're not operating in isolation. I think, I think to, to be much more aware of, of our role within the kind of broader, broader change agenda and operating in solidarity feels even more important. I think a tough lesson for the arts and cultural sector, I think as a, as an observer was just how quickly, um, people kind of lost meaning and function almost immediately, you know, when the doors closed, you know, the shoulders went up and it was like, well, if, if your only reason for existing was because you were operating within a precarious business model, then I think there's some serious questions to ask yourself about what your value is beyond just an economic one. Um, and I think that that is a, I think that's a tough kind of set of questions that, that I think large swathes of the sector are asking themselves. Because if, if the question is just about how you can get to a footfall in order to break even on a production and not why are we doing this and who will be doing it for, and what are we trying to communicate to the world? I think that that is a, there's a, there's a different kind of set of, of questions there that need to be asked really, in terms of, of, um, you know, the, the role of, you know, um, the arts and cultural sector in, in society and in this country. I mean, you know, from my perspective, a healthy society is one that is, um, in critical discourse with itself. And I think a really strong and vibrant arts and cultural sector can be part of that critical discourse. Um, and I think that that is something that I think, um, I'm, I'm seeing a greater sense of, of, of demand across the sector to be much more part of, kind of fierce on origin conversations. And so I think that that would be a good thing. My, my fear, um, would be that, you know, you know, like in, um, in Terminator two, when that guy gets a, like a whole blown in him and then he kind of grows back and he's almost stronger than ever is that we've kind of blown a hole in something here and now. And, um, and the fear is that it could slowly kind of start to reform, um, almost stronger and more resilient to change than, than what it was previously. So I just think keeping, keeping those conversations open and keeping those windows, those windows of potential change open, I think will be, will be really important for the next steps. And

Speaker 1: 47:29

On that note, Patrick, thank you so much.