Digital Works Podcast
Talking about all the different things that 'digital' means in the arts, culture and heritage sectors. Tales of success and failure, interrogating the shiny new things and looking at what works (or not) and why, Interviews with digital folks working across the sector and beyond, in-house, consultants, funders, and more.
Digital Works Podcast
Episode 055 - Ash and Katie, Bytes #12 - the habits of innovative councils, Google's research on the consumption habits of Gen Z, and a good idea from Friends of the Earth
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The twelfth in our new series, Bytes, where Ash and Katie discuss 3 (or 4) things from the latest Digital Works Newsletter.
In this episode we'll be discussing some of the links in the newsletter that went out on July 16th.
We talk about:
- The 5 habits of innovative councils
- Business Insider on Google's research looking at Gen Z's consumption habits
- Friends of the Earth 'steal our ideas'
You can sign up for the newsletter at thedigital.works.
Innovative Practices for Cultural Organizations
Speaker 1Hello and welcome to the Digital Works podcast , a podcast about digital stuff in the cultural sector .
Speaker 1My name's Ash and today's episode is episode 12 of Bytes . Bytes is our regular short-form series where we look at three or four things from the most recent Digital Works newsletter , and joining me today and for all episodes in this series is the person who puts that newsletter together , my colleague Katie . Today we'll be talking about some things that were included in the newsletter that went out on Tuesday , july 16th . The three things that we're going to look at in today's episode of Bytes are a piece on the London Office of Technology and Innovation website which is titled Five Habits of Innovative Councils , because it certainly feels like there's lots in there for cultural organizations to think about . We're going to look at a piece in Business Insider about some research that Jigsaw , which is google's research arm , has carried out , looking at how genzy digest online and metabolize what they see online , which I sort of found the whole thing quite depressing . And last but not least , we are going to look at a page on the friends of the earth website titled steal our ideas , which again feels like there could be something in there for cultural organisations to think about . So the first thing we'll look at is this piece by Eddie Copeland , published in May this year on the Lottie website so , as I said , the london office of technology and innovation and they sort of identify , as they say , five habits of councils where innovation happens most happily and sort of successfully . And reading through this it was striking how many of these sort of attributes and behaviors and structures are things that I know you and I have talked a lot about and done work with cultural organizations around . So I'll just quickly give the headlines of their sort of five habits .
Speaker 1So number one they say don't guess . Experiment . Again , both Katie and I have talked a lot about experimentation and running small experiments to work out what a way forward might look like . Number two is use the full toolkit and essentially this seems to be pointing at the idea that , as they say , people , technology , data and process are interlinked and interdependent . It's almost impossible to change one without changing the others . And again , this is an idea that both you and Ike have talked a lot about . That often digital transformation is less about , or maybe not only about , technology , it's about a load of other stuff as well .
Speaker 1Habit number three they say tackle big problems with more minds . And this is about , as they say , great solutions to complex problems are more likely to arise with multidisciplinary teams . Number four empower every employee to solve the problems in front of them . Again , this is a leadership and culture thing they say here . I invite every council leadership team to ask themselves is there any part of your organization where staff could ever find themselves in that position ? And he's talking about a situation where he went to the train station and was basically given short shrift by someone who was dealing with broken systems . And the last habit is create the conditions for innovation to happen . And a lot of this is about sort of the idea of psychological safety , being comfortable with not knowing the answers , and there being a clear vision and alignment around that . So , given all that , katie , what do you think cultural organisations , cultural leaders , cultural workers could be stealing , taking influence from here ? Because this is very much focused on councils and cultural organisations are not councils .
Speaker 2Yeah , that is true , they're not councils , but I think that , as you say , this article has such a direct read across to arts and culture for a few reasons . I think the first point they're saying about don't guess , experiment , particularly around the point of I'm just going to read out the line because it's really super good First admitting that we don't know the answers . This can be extremely challenging in local government , where we encourage domain specialization early in careers and expect senior staff to have all the answers and I think you could literally say that about arts and culture , couldn't you ? Where this notion of domain specialization and so one person should know the answer to this thing and therefore , inherently , that discourages people from first of all saying maybe we don't know the answer , maybe we just need to test some stuff and try some stuff and experiment . And it comes back to the age-old thing of you know , if something doesn't work the first time you do it , that's okay , that's fine . Like you , you know you've learned something from it .
Speaker 2And then I think , also the example that he gives the guy who builds a little house for a frog , which won't mean anything unless you actually read the article and then click through and watch the video which I had . I actually saw on TikTok before it blew up . So basically this guy . For those who haven't seen it , there's a TikTok video . It's .
Speaker 1I like that you're now going to explain . It's a good video .
Speaker 2Basically , this guy has a house and a little frog starts living on his fence and then he decides to build a little house for the frog , but the first iteration of the little house it's a 3D printed house , right ? It's not quite right . So then he adapts it and then he adapts it , adapts it anyway . So essentially , obviously , the learning from that is that the first version of the house that he built was not good for the frog . And I liked the line in the article where it says the council might spend six months writing a frog housing strategy and never get around to building anything . The council might assume it knew exactly what the frog wanted , commissioner Firm , to build hundreds of frog houses , only to realize that not a single amphibian would ever want to live in one . I mean , that is such a good analogy for sort of digital projects , even , you know , even sort of marketing websites .
Speaker 2In summary , I think that article well , I would say it's one of the best I've read really , certainly in the last six months , in terms of just some really simple , useful tips to get people thinking about how they can work in a way that it will be more effective . Of course , it does rely on you having a culture that lets you do this . So it's a little bit chicken and egg , because essentially it's like you have to have the culture that enables you to do these things . But you can't do these things unless you have . You know it is tricky , but there's some very good tips in there as well and some little tools and things that I think people could draw on .
Speaker 2It's a great article and actually the other thing I would say about it is the last point , this create conditions for innovation to happen . Again , he's sort of talking about experimentation and the sort of making sure , again , you have the right culture . But I liked the little diagram that he showed that's actually from Nesta about how it's much better to do the sort of prototyping and the testing early on , when you've got that room for failure , rather than spending hundreds of thousands of pounds or even tens or even thousands of pounds to build something when you don't know that it's going to be right . Anyway , it's a good article . Everybody should read it and you should watch the Frog House video because it's cool .
Speaker 1You absolutely
Changing Habits of Gen Z
Speaker 1should . I think it's interesting that what this article makes clear is that these five habits are somewhat interdependent . You can't just do one or two of them . But also reading it , I was struck that it felt like these are the sorts of things you could change on a sort of team level . You don't need to be trying to change the entire organisation all at once . Actually , if you could try and start to incubate some of these habits at a team level , it feels like that could be a good way to try and spark some bottom-up change .
Speaker 2Yeah , and I think , to be fair , in local government , that is how this sort of innovation has happened . Actually , I mean , I'm talking like , if you go back sort of over the last 10 years , definitely these are big , complex organizations . You're not going to change it in a week , are you so ? Absolutely , it's at the start at team level .
Speaker 1Now the second thing we're going to look at today is a piece in Business Insider with the title Gen Z's Most Trusted Source for News , online Comment Sections , and this piece is about some research which was carried out by Jigsaw , and Jigsaw is a sort of unit within Google , as they call themselves , and they say that they explore threats to open societies and build technology that inspires scalable solutions . And you know , you pulled out a quote from the Business Insider article which I thought was a really good summary of what the research found and also sort of fairly depressing . So I'll just read the quote .
Speaker 1Jigsaw's findings offer a revealing glimpse into the digital mindset of Gen Z , where older generations are out there struggling to fact-check information and cite sources . Gen Zers don't even bother . They just read the headlines and then speed-scroll to the comments to see what everyone else says . They're outsourcing the determination of truth and importance to like-minded , trusted influencers , and if an article's too long , they just skip it . They don't want to see stuff that might force them to think too hard or that upsets them emotionally . If they have a goal , jigsaw found it's to learn what they need to know to remain cool and conversant in their chosen social groups and another part of the Business Insider article highlighted that a lot of gen z's approach , as they say , most of their digital experience in what the researchers call time pass mode just looking not to be bored . What does this research tell us about the quite radically different consumption and behavioral habits of younger digital audiences ?
Speaker 2Yeah , it's a fascinating article . It's the first time I had seen that insight , the insight being that you know there's so much talk about disinformation , misinformation and fact-checking and that Gen Z some of Gen Z are not even bothered about checking it . I think that comments thing about how they will just check the comments and see what people are saying it comes from TikTok really . And so there's a side note to all of this that it shows how much TikTok has changed people's behaviors . And I do specifically say that comparative to YouTube , because of course YouTube has always had comments , but there's something about TikTok comments and you know the most popular ones rising to the top and so on that really does change how particularly this generation react to stuff that they see . So it's like what's everyone saying in the comments ? That sort of then guides what they think about it .
Speaker 2I actually don't find this depressing . You said you found it slightly depressing . I think it is just a fascinating look at how different their behavior is , and that that's okay , because that is just what it is . It's the nature of , you know , generational change . Because there is a piece in the article where the author says if this sounds like a generation that will believe any flim flam they encounter . Well , researchers at jigsaw worry about that too . But the good news is , gen zers aren't seeing as much intentional falsehood as you might think , and that's because they're saying that essentially , a lot of that misinformation and disinformation is being seen and consumed and made intentionally by sort of a minority of users .
Speaker 2And so , again , the fact that they may see a few random tiktoks that are sort of a load of old rubbish they know enough to like skip it , unless you are already somebody who's you know very interested in that world . And that's not to say , of course , that there isn't a huge impact of you know bad content . You know people like andrew tate , whatever . Of course those things have a big impact , but I think this is saying something slightly different and more nuanced , which is the way in which they consume content is just very different . And actually I think again , it's fascinating if you think about arts and culture , if you think about websites , even search , because there's a bit early on , I think . I mean , that's been written about before , hasn't it the sort of not using search so much than other generations may . But there's a lot in there that is fascinating really , about how they navigate the internet .
Speaker 1Yes , maybe depressing is the wrong word . I just felt sort of staggeringly old reading this ?
Speaker 2Well , we are comparatively yes sadly old reading this .
Speaker 1yeah , well , we are compared to yes , yes , sadly , but I do think another threat that's sort of hinted at in this article is this time pass mode . You know this sort of pathological aversion to being bored and also pathological aversion to really having to intellectually engage with any of the things they're looking at . You know they want to be entertained , they want to just sort of pass their time online in an enjoyable or , as it says , in a light obligation-free mode .
Speaker 2And I think that also throws up some interesting questions for cultural organisations , for people producing cultural content , because the things that are considered to be valuable and considered to be engaging are changing yes , but again , I think that speaks to the impact of things like tiktok and from an arts and culture perspective , it's more important now than ever that if you are engaging on these channels , you understand them . You understand not just the mechanics of them , but you know what brat summer is , or you know , you know , even saying that I'm like that's gone now . You know like you have to be fully tuned into the memes . Kamala harris's obviously as we're recording , this is only a couple of weeks ago now the democratic presidential candidate and her social media team , her tiktok team , are just on it straight away and it's so interesting to see and to see the comments from people who are like who's running this account ? It's amazing because it's so finely tuned to like meme culture . So I guess I'm just saying that I think they just inhabit this world so fully .
Speaker 1That's just how it is , yeah , basically this allows me to quote an adam cosery post . So adam led digital stuff , social media , at the museum of english real life and then went to work for twitter for a bit and then was at the royal academy and now works for canon and sort of has an interesting and useful perspective on how the cultural sector engages with social I think . And he said it's 2024 and it's past time museums got their shit together . If the Labour Party and the White House can create content that younger audiences don't find boring as fuck , there's nothing stopping us from doing the same , yeah .
Speaker 2And , to be fair , there are . You know , national Gallery are brilliant on threads . I haven't seen them on TikTok , but I'm not actively searching them out , but it is , yeah , it is possible , but it's time isn't it , it's hard .
Speaker 1That's the issue , yeah .
Speaker 2Anyway , it's a great article and I actually have to say I didn't realize even that Google had its own research arm , although of course they do , because they must have everything right the last thing that I want us to talk about is this page on the friends of the earth website .
Speaker 1Well , it's a section . Actually they've got a whole section experimentfriendsoftheearthuk , and this particular page is titled steal our ideas and the sort of strap line says please take the ideas we love but cannot work on . They say some of our ideas we really like but do not have the capacity or money to pursue . It may seem odd that we're giving them away for nothing , but we want to make sure potentially great projects don't die in the dark . Some are drafts shown to experts . Some underwent very basic user testing .
Speaker 1We can promise that each of these ideas at the very least got a few people excited outside our team . Please take them , run with them and tell us the story . And when you shared this and sort of said cultural organizations , maybe this is an idea , an interesting model to follow it . Just it immediately felt not obvious , that's unfair , but exciting , really exciting . You know , so often we hear for cultural organizations that the thing stopping them is not enough time , not enough money , not enough expertise , and actually maybe this is another way to give life to some of those ideas that a cultural organization or a sort of cohort of cultural organizations is never going to be able to bring to life , but I'm interested to hear what you think is interesting about it .
Speaker 2Yes , I mean , I think . At first off , I think it's fascinating that friends of the earth have a team called the experimentsiments Team . That in itself is quite interesting , isn't it ? To recognise that if we are going to solve some of the issues around climate change and nature breakdown , we're going to have to be quite radical in thinking . The reason it jumped out to me in relation to digital works was because , yes , at Substract , we talk all the time to organizations who are planning on building websites or want to have a particular feature , functionality , or who are talking about problems that they have and how they would love to solve them , but they don't have the money or the time , etc . Etc . And I will say that shout out to Bloomberg philanthropies who have been funding over the last couple of years and continue to do so , lots of interesting projects .
Speaker 2But seeing this made me think it would be great , wouldn't it , if there was a version of this for arts and culture , because sometimes there can be a problem where organizations are going off and you know you might have two or three organizations working on the same problem and that you know , and it's like why are they not just working together ? Or you know there could be people adjacent to the sector who could sort of bring their ideas and thoughts to bear on some of these problems . So it just seemed like a sort of obvious thing to do , really . But I guess this has come from one organization who's putting their experiments out there . So yeah , you know it's like , is there going to be one organization in the arts and culture who would do that ? Or is there a world in which arts council England maybe not , but some other body sets it up and then , you know , everybody contributes to it ? So yeah , I think it could be a fascinating way as well to sort of see what issues people are trying to collectively solve thanks for listening to this episode of .
Speaker 1You can find all episodes of the podcast on our website at thedigitalworks , where you can also find more information about our events and sign up to the newsletter . Our theme tune is Vienna , beat by Blue Dot Sessions . And , last but not least , thanks to Mark Cotton for his editing support on this episode . See you again soon .
