Digital Works Podcast
Talking about all the different things that 'digital' means in the arts, culture and heritage sectors. Tales of success and failure, interrogating the shiny new things and looking at what works (or not) and why, Interviews with digital folks working across the sector and beyond, in-house, consultants, funders, and more.
Digital Works Podcast
Episode 029 - Maaike Verberk (DEN) on digital transformation, the importance of new ideas, understanding your audience, and the traits of digitally confident organisations
A chat with Maaike Verberk, Managing Director of DEN, the Dutch Knowledge Institute for Culture & Digital Transformation.
We talked about digital transformation, the importance of being open to new ideas, the value of really understanding your audiences, the traits of organisations where good digital stuff is happening, and loads more.
Hello, and welcome to the Digital Works podcast, the podcast about digital stuff in the cultural sector. In this episode, episode number 29, we speak to Micah Verberg. Micah is the managing Director at den, which is the Dutch Knowledge Institute for Culture and Digital Transformation. We spoke at the end of 2022, and our conversation covered how to undertake a program of digital transformation, the benefits of thinking in new ways and of being innovative, the traits of organizations where good digital stuff is happening, and the importance of understanding your audiences. Enjoy. We've, we've been talking, I suppose, maybe for a year now, maybe, uh, since Annette introduced us. So I know you are a bit, as you know, Micah at Den, but I know you have a really interesting career prior to, to your role at Den. So maybe that's where we start. What is, what is Micah's story? Where, where have you come from?
Speaker 2:Um, well li it, I come from the south of the Netherlands, so there we bond. I'm not sure if that's in the uk. That's also like a bond between people if they come from the same region. But there we bond. But my background, uh, let's not go way, way back, but, uh, uh, I have a university degree in business management and arts and arts management. And that was way up north at the University of Rona. And then I started several jobs at local and provincial governments, always in the arts, uh, advisory, um, uh, policy, uh, functions. And, um, uh, then I, uh, started working, uh, within cultural organizations. And I think that the most interesting, uh, uh, to share is the last two before I, uh, became the director, uh, uh, with then. Um, so, um, I was a business manager at Stripe, and Stripe is a biannual, uh, art and technology festival in Anto. And, um, just to, uh, um, to give you a picture, um, we have like, um, it's like this, this huge exhibition. We, uh, we developed, uh, or changed even transformed even forward factory hall, uh, uh, in, um, uh, an exhibition, um, with very highly artistic, but also very highly interactive, uh, digital art. So from artists all over the world, uh, who, who use digital as their canvas. And, uh, it was also combined with, um, a large educational program and also combined with electronic music, uh, nights like, uh, headliners, uh, like underworld. So that was the, and that also combined, so during the music night, we also had our exhibition open. So we had this, this wide variety of people coming in and, and, and, and getting to know the art and the, the digital art and interacting with it. Um, it was, yeah, that was super, super energetic. Um, but then I got a call from, um, our largest theater company, tohu Amsterdam. They needed a business manager. And I have to say my love for the arts started with performing arts. So I thought, whoa, this is such an opportunity, so let's go and talk. And the other thing is that, um, with Tohu Amsterdam, they have now merged with, uh, the theater in Amsterdam, and they are now called International Theater Amsterdam. So, but when I, uh, came there to have a conversation, um, uh, it Wask Amsterdam and their director was Ivo Van hok. And, uh, um, I always had, within my career, uh, thought him as a very, very inspiring person because he was, he's a, he's a, he has, he's a super artistic, uh, director. I, I really love this work, but he's also very, very good in managing a company. And that's, well, that's not always the case, let's put it like that. So I was also very inspired to work with him. So that's were the two main reasons. I was very happy where I was. But my love for performing arts and, well, my curiosity, uh, in Tohu Amsterdam, uh, led me to have that conversation. And then three weeks later, I got, uh, I got a job. So, um, um, I went from Stripe to Tohu Amsterdam, which was, um, which was really good to work there. But what I saw was the, the, the, uh, the difference in how the audience interacted with art and also different composition of audiences, you know, what is in the theater was, uh, had a completely different background, uh, um, completely different age, et cetera, than what I saw with, uh, this Stripe Festival. Um, and to put a long story short, when I saw this, um, vacancy at Den where, uh, um, and, and you have to see when, when I started at then, which is more than four years ago, it was, um, a knowledge institute, a Dutch Knowledge Institute. And I know we're gonna dive deeper in that, uh, later on, but it was then a knowledge institute for digitizing, uh, heritage collections. But they had this assignment, a broader assignment, uh, from, uh, the national government to include the art sector. And I thought, this is my chance. You know, this is where I think, uh, digital and arts can meet, and that I can really, uh, work and support organizations to include that. So I applied, I think I had a good story because the board appointed me, and, uh, here we are, um, four and a half, almost five years later. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And that's a, a fascinating career journey. Um, I think it's interesting that, that, you know, your, as you say, your degree, you are a, you are a, a trained administrator initially, but sort of understanding the possibility of technology to impact the form of culture, but also to help engage audiences. And I think the observation about the difference in audience between Stripe and then, um, the, the theater in Amsterdam is an observation. You know, many of us have worked in the, in the sector, you sort of work move between institutions that you think, oh, there should be much more crossover here. But there is a very clear, very clear difference. And, and now, you know, moving on to, to den, um, as we've discussed in the past, I'm not sure that in the UK we have a direct equivalent for the, the work that Den does. I think there are some overlaps with maybe institutions, organizations like Nesta or the audience agency, um, and others. But for non Dutch listeners to this, it'd be great to hear what is Den, you gave us a little snapshot earlier. What is Den? Um, and what is your focus? What are you trying to achieve?
Speaker 2:Well, den is, is like the audience agency, a sector supporting organization. Um, and we have several in, uh, in the Netherlands, and we are, uh, highly funded by our national government. Um, and we are a knowledge institute, um, um, to accelerate and support the cultural and creative sector in their digital transformation. That's our assignment. Um, and, um, so, uh, how do we do this? Um, uh, we do it in several ways because I think, uh, it is, it is not know, the word Knowledge Institute really, um, makes it look like that we are behind our desk and, uh, writing, uh, white papers, uh, that you can read and, and then you have a clue on how to digital transform. But it's, it's, no, we, we are really doing this together with the sector and, uh, and connect, um, well institutions together, together to share knowledge. But we also know that this is, uh, that we need new tooling and new methodologies. So together with the sector, we develop them. So to help them in this step by step fundamental change in how they are working, because that's what digital transformation is. It is this fundamental new way of working, um, creating new business models that has an impact on your working processes, on the skill sets that you need, uh, on the way you, uh, engage or interact with your audiences to really data driven working. So it's on all areas of a cultural organization. Um, um, you need to take small steps towards this bigger picture. So we develop tools and methodologies to help them in this transformation. Uh, we have Aden Academy where we, uh, educate people in leadership, in innovative working methods, in online education, things like that. Um, we also support innovative working, um, methods, because I think that's, that's a new way of working, let's say, in the Dutch cultural sector, because we are really working. That's also how our funding system is, is, is developed. Um, that, um, um, you also, when you, when you build a new project, you also have the solution. And when you have the solution, you're working towards that, but at, but you're not sure if the solution is the right, uh, the right thing for the challenge that you are, that you want to tackle. So Agile is much more innovative approaches that I think that, uh, the organizations can learn. So we help them with that. And, um, and we also support new collaborations, as I already said. And I think it's important to let you know that it's that we do this work on two levels. So we help individual organizations, but we also interact absolutely with our government or with how I call it the ecosystem, because if we help organization to transform, but the whole ecosystem around them stays the same, like funders are still wanting to have like, uh, um, a, a whole, uh, a totally, uh, project, a funding proposal that has a solution already embedded, then it won't help them because they need to experiment and they need to, uh, find out ways how to transform. So we are working on two levels. Does that make sense?
Speaker 1:It, it absolutely does. And I think, you know, yeah, from my perspective, it feels like there's an opportunity for the UK sector to, well, the UK sector has a need, I think for a similar sort of a support, but something focused on digital transformation, because I don't think that there's enough holistic support or holistic programs around that, that actually look at all of the things that digital transformation should engage with, but also, um, an organization that creates and holds and funds and encourages a space for innovation. And not just innovation for the sake of innovation, but innovation and learning and, uh, uh, there being actually a continuum of progress that this innovation is, is moving along. And it feels like in the uk there have been ad hoc one-off, you know, programs or programs that no longer exist that were directed at parts of that equation, but there's no one institution that is the equivalent of DEN that does all of that in, in the round, which does feel like a, a missed opportunity. Yeah.
Speaker 2:But I have to also, um, uh, we have to take this in perspective. You're talking now to the director of den and, you know, I have this vision, but also for us, it's a complex, a complex challenge. Um, and you're absolutely right. Holistic is, is a very, uh, adequate word in the challenge that we have because, you know, you, you just can't change one thing. It's really an integral approach and a fundamental change. So it, it has all that in that. But on the same hand, we have to also make choices. Where do we focus? Where do we start first? Um, so it's, uh, it's also a challenge for us. So I'm having this beautiful story, and I really believe in it, and I think it is really necessary. I'm so grateful that we have this assignment because I think it's the only way forward, uh, to make it a structural change and to make this fundamental change because our audiences are changing ash. We need to more have more focus on, um, uh, middle term or longer term changes in our audiences. And, um, uh, so I need to, I think this holistic approach is necessary, but then it's also make, makes it very complex because I also look with envy at the audience agency because they have such a focused, uh, assignment. They can really, really make, make steps, uh, in, in this, uh, data driven, uh, strategy building or data driven marketing, where in the Netherlands, we are far from, um, uh, achieving what the audience agency has achieved in the uk. But it is just small part of the large, uh, challenge that is digital transformation. So doing it as a whole, I think has, has absolutely, um, um, um, it, it is crucial, but it's also makes it also very difficult or challenging. Let's not use the word difficult. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yes, yes. And, and, and I, I, I think that that's true. And I, I think anyone listening to this thinking about, you know, organizational change is whatever, whatever change you're trying to achieve is never straightforward, especially in a organized organizations of all sizes. It, it's complicated because people are involved and people are complicated.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And the, the main thing of digital transformation is what we always say in our Den Academy where we have this leadership program, it's just 10% about tech and 90% about people. Um, so yeah, it, it's, it's just that, and, and there's no one size fits all. So thinking about making methodologies and tools, there's just, there's not one. So we have to make a whole diversity of, of, of interventions that organizations can use to build this, uh, new, um, innovative culture in an organization.
Speaker 1:Yeah, and I think that that's the thing it feels that, you know, boards and executive teams need to realize is there isn't just, there's not just one digital transformation tool that you pick up off the shelf and you pay your money and you do the thing. Actually, it requires a lot of thought and reflection and analysis, and it's likely to need to be a combination of approaches and a combination of systems and a combination of methodologies for your individual organization.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah. And what we say, and I'm, I'm also curious what you think about that, but we all say it's, it's, it, it, it, it starts with vision and leadership because that's absolutely necessary, but it really has to trickle down or even start bottom up. You have on all layers of organizations, you have to have these change agents that help you in this transformation. Because you, if you are a digital leader and you know, you have this digital strategy, but it doesn't connect with the people why it is important, um, well, then nothing is gonna change. So yeah, that's absolutely true. It's, it's on all layers. Um, so it starts with vision and leadership, but then you also have to have tools and, and, and, and interventions, uh, in, in formal multidisciplinary teams, et cetera. Yeah,
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And that leads me on my next question. Through the work that that Den has done, the programs that you've run, the organizations that you've worked with and supported, are there common characteristics, uh, that are shared by the organizations that manage to move faster or more successfully in this space compared to those that maybe don't quite get it right, or actually, is it an entirely individual one by one everyone's different situation?
Speaker 2:No, I, I have been thinking about this question. Um, I think that, uh, for one part, I have already given the answer that I think that leadership is very important. I think that's a common denominative in, in organization cultural organizations that are moving forward, um, because the, the most successful right now also had vision before covid, you know, they, they were working on it also before that, uh, and it just accelerated. And because it's, they had this vision, they made it more part of their strategy. Um, and that's why they are also now developing and, and, and, and, and moving forward in this digital transformation process. So I think it's, um, I think that's, that's the ma still the main part. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think that, you know, those people that were perhaps, or organizations that were shocked into action by Covid and the restrictions, um, I, I, I wouldn't say it's too late, but I would say that you have to, you have to get on the train, you know, the train is leaving the station. It has almost left the station. Yeah,
Speaker 2:Yeah. You know what we, it was, uh, for us, it was like the start of covid with, with all its atrocities for the cultural sector. Um, for us, it was a super, super busy time, you know, uh, because we saw all these, uh, inspiring examples and we saw all this experimenting. Um, um, so we were very busy in having those, um, um, business cases published and, and trying to, uh, uh, to help people with choosing the right platform, et cetera, et cetera. Um, so it was very busy. But then what, what I also, and what I found, um, for me, there was really a wake up call is that when the first lockdown stopped here in the Netherlands, and I know that in the uk there were different lockdowns, different timings, different, um, supporting measures, but we had this, uh, after the first lockdown, our cultural organizations were allowed to open, but only for 30 people. Can you imagine 30 people? So you had this, we have so many theaters, like they have like a thousand plus seats, and they were allowed to invite 30 people. And, um, and of course they did because they were so happy that they could reopen. And I can, I can really relate to that. But on the same time, they stopped, and I'm a little bit exaggerating, but it's, it's like, I think I'm from 95% telling the truth. They stopped immediately all their, uh, online activities. So all their effort and energy went to the, the 30 lucky people they were able to invite and all those, those, uh, those experimenting and engaging audience and connecting with the audience online, which were for a lot of people, new activities. And, uh, but they also saw that they, that they really made an impact, that it was not only numbers, but that it really helped people at home to connect to, to stay sane, to stay healthy. Um, yeah, it's, it's just stopped. And that was from me wake up call. I say, whoa, we have work to do. Because if, if, if, if those months of, of connecting people online did not leave, uh, an impression of this could be something that we need to dive into and need to, um, um, um, um, build a strategy around, um, I think, okay. So, um, there's work to be done because the, the, yeah, well, and I, you know, I told you I come from a performing arts background and I really love theater, but I think it's not either or. So what the sector, um, what the sector really can do and what we can help them is it's, is let them, uh, see and let them, um, experience how to expand their activities so they can also expand their value for society. I think that's the main reason why I think this is ne necessary, again, because the audiences are changing, and I think that you are losing your connection with the audiences of the future if you don't invest in this, the digital possibilities always connected with the reason and the relevance while you are here as a cultural organization. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think we've seen some of that snap back in the uk, you know, people trying to return to normal in heavy quotation marks. But I think the pandemic, you know, the world in 2022 is not the same as the world in 2019 for lots of reasons. Um, and things have changed. And to your point, my view is that digital has been shown that it can be a part of the way that cultural organizations engage with audiences. And as you say, it's not a question of all digital or all in person. Um, I think organizations should be thinking about how they blend that, that programing model, really. And I imagine you are having conversations with organizations who have, maybe not who, who have maybe stopped doing digital stuff and have gone back to just doing, you know, work in person. How, how are those conversations going? What, what are the sort of arguments, I suppose you are hearing from the cultural organizations about why they've made those choices, why they've stopped doing digital things when the pandemic proved that there is at least an opportunity there to explore?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think there are, if I just, I think our two categories of, of answers, um, one is a very, um, uh, formal answer. Um, um, because we have, um, um, very different ways of funding a cultural organization in Netherlands. And with that funding also come become obligations. And, uh, the formal answer often is, um, well, we don't, uh, we are not allowed to do this because we have funding to, um, make, uh, three theater productions in a year. And if I do that with the fund, with the amount of funding I have, then well, there's no room for experimenting and, uh, uh, and, and experimenting in digital and expanding. So that's a formal answer. And that's also a way, uh, what I said that we as a, um, as, as a sector supporting organization, we also, uh, need to have conversations with governments. Um, and on that, uh, our, um, our, um, national government has all, has all, has also, um, has been seeing this and has allowed, uh, the, uh, the cultural institutions to also give feedback, not only on their audience numbers that they invite in their theater, in their theater or in their museum, et cetera, but they now also are able to, uh, mention their online visitors. So there are changes there. So, but the, for, that's one of the formal answers, you know, um, funding does not allow me to continue, uh, digital when, uh, when now we can reopen. So that's one. And the other is also more, um, um, this, this fundamental, um, thinking of how art should be and that it is, uh, life that is a live experience and that people want to meet and want to experience. And, uh, and that's a very tough one because, um, yeah. That's, that's so, uh, I think that's, that's the, the main two answers. Um,
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that certainly tallys with conversations I've been having in, in the uk, but also with organizations in Canada and the United States, you know, that people deciding that they don't feel they have the resources, the bandwidth, whether it's time or money or whatever it might be, that they don't have resources that they can spend on experimentation or digital, because that will mean they have to stop doing something else, and they don't feel they can justify that. And I think as well, and you saw a few sort of very strongly worded opinion pieces during the pandemic of theater makers and, and other practitioners who do not simply do not believe that digital experiences Yeah. Are valid cultural experiences.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, that's absolutely true. And I had this conversation also during Covid, that people say, well, there is no, uh, artistic ex ex, uh, there's no artistic experience possible, um, online. Yeah. And that really amazed me because I think that that's absolutely not true, but how do you convince this, you know, this is how do you research this or, or validate that. So that's really, uh, that that's, but it's also something I think we should also engage upon, uh, to show it that, that it's, that there's really an engagement and it's also about, again, uh, the audiences that, uh, are now in a totally different way. Um, you know, young people grow up in a totally different society as you and I grew up, Ash, um, you know, for them on or offline, there's just no issue. It's just there. And they connect with people, they make friends online, their imagination gets developed during gaming, et cetera. So it's, it's, it's just, um, uh, it's different. And yeah, so I think that we, uh, also as a cultural sector should more engage also in getting to know our audience. That's also part of this digital transformation, um, getting to know your audience. We are, we are, um, uh, we are so dedicated to our artistic content and our artistic products. Um, but you know, it, it has its validation when it's connecting with an audience. So we also should have this, this dedication in getting to know our audiences and getting to know the audience that we don't have, and how can we connect them with these beautiful stories that we have. And that's, that's also, uh, something that in commercial organizations is, is so, you know, default and for cultural organizations, that's something that we can develop. Yeah,
Speaker 1:Yeah, for sure. And a conversation I had recently, um, with another podcast guest, which will be, which will be held soon. He, he was reflecting on the fact that, you know, in a commercial organization, it's seen as a risk. If you don't innovate, you have to innovate because otherwise, if you, if you don't innovate, you'll die. Whereas in a cultural organization, it is seen as a risk to spend any time on thinking about how you might do things differently, because you've got to focus on the core thing. And I think, as you've said there, if we, if we allow ourselves to stay in that mindset, the world is going to change around us, and we won't have realized. And by the time we realize it will be too much of a gap that we have to make up. And so it does feel like we have to engage with, you know, I've been saying that you can either see digital as an opportunity, and if you don't engage with it as an opportunity, it starts to become a threat. Um, and it feels like we are, we are at that moment now, you know, so much change through C O V I D, so many behaviors changed, you know, people's cultural habits were broken for two years, you know, and they're not going to reform in the way that they existed prior to the pandemic. So, uh,
Speaker 2:I think that's, and it's, and it's also, you know, it's, it's, um, um, of course cultural organizations are innovative, but they're really innovative in their artistic creation process because there's where all the innovation is, you know, that keeps being reoffended and developed and, and, and, uh, and every, and, and sometimes because it's also sometimes very technological. So it's all there, but on everything around that, that's where what you and I now are talking about. Eh, so that's, that's really important because I know, and I have been making this, this mistake in talking to, uh, you know, having, having this talk about innovation. And then I see the, the, the, the, the artists sort of cultural organization. How can you say that we're not innovative, look at what we do, but it's then the artistic, and of course that's innovative. But we, you and I now in this podcast are talking about all the things around them, and that's, uh, all the things around this artistic process, and that is also super relevant.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. Cuz unless you innovate across all those other things, no one's gonna find their way to the very innovative art that you are making and wanting to share with, with people. Um, so thinking a little bit about the future now, um, maybe you could talk a bit about what, what dens focus is over, over the, maybe the, the short to medium term, the next maybe, I don't know, one to three years perhaps. And then what you are hoping the sector at large is going to start to think about, uh, ask questions about engage with around digital.
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a large question. Maybe we should break<laugh>. Maybe we can
Speaker 1:Break, break it too fast. Let's, let's,
Speaker 2:Let's break it down. Let,
Speaker 1:Let's start with den first. What if, if we look at the short to medium term in terms of the, the work that dens doing, the funds that you've got available, the programs you're focusing on, what, what are the areas that you are looking at over the, over the next few years?
Speaker 2:Yeah. Well, we are now in the luxurious position that, uh, our national government, uh, um, has, uh, is, has given us, um, an amount of money now to, because they really also, um, support the thought that digital transformation is a way, uh, um, um, to, um, also amend the damage that, uh, the Covid has done. Um, so we are now in the position that we really can accelerate our work with this amount of money. And, um, um, I think that, you know, what I just said, it's, it's also, it's also an acceleration about what we are, what we have been doing, thinking, working more with organizations, really listening to them, what they need in, in this organizational change, uh, path, which, which is digital transformation. So on the, on the shorter term, we're really focusing on, um, developing more tools and methodologies. So not one, uh, one size fits all, but really looking and working, um, together with organizations in that. And that's, um, and on the other hand, really focusing on this innovative organizational culture that is so beneficial, um, in digital transformation. Um, so that, that's one part. And the other part is really supporting the community of, um, the cultural professionals as how I call, how I see them are the, the change agents. So who are the people that think, um, well anyway, they could think, oh, um, digital, digital transformation, oh, that's something that we should do something with. Well, that's one, that's the first step, right? So if they are, and they're coming to us and they are curious and they're doing, uh, a workshop, or they're following a program in the Den Academy, then I think, oh, yeah, I, you are part of our community now. So you are one of the change agents on whichever level in an organization, you can bring this change and talk to your team members, talk to your management, or talk to your board if you have, if you are the director. So we are really inspiring and, uh, supporting this community to connect together to, uh, give them new insights, helping them. So that's, that's, and, and of course, the tooling and methodologies that we are developing is also helping the community. So that's also maybe two sides of the same coin. Um, um, does that sound Yeah, like an answer?
Speaker 1:It does sound like an answer. Absolutely. And I, I thought it was interesting that you mentioned there this idea of curiosity. It's a word you've mentioned a few times, and it's a word that I hear a lot in these podcast conversations that I have. It feels like a really essential trait if you want to be successful in, in digital work, whatever scale of digital work, you have to be interested and, and curious about new ideas, new technologies, new approaches. I, I wonder, do through the work that that den does, do you have any, I suppose, formal ways that you try to ignite curiosity in the organizations you work with?
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. I think curiosity is the starting point of a learning process. I think without curiosity, people just stand still. And, um, uh, I've been saying that that, um, I think one, you know, the main char characteristics of, uh, an organization where digital transformation starts is vision and leadership, but it's also about an innovative organizational culture. And one of those, uh, traits or characteristics of an organ, innovative organizational culture is, um, um, if people are able team members, all layers in the organizations are, uh, in contact with the outside world to see and be inspired with new developments and bring them inside and are able to experiment with that and also are able to make, to fail, you know, a being able to fill with experimenting. So seeing new things, I think, and that's igniting, uh, curiosity, you know, being able and being allowed, uh, being embraced even to look, uh, outside and not only in the cultural sector, but you know, in life and in the commercial and in how your children, uh, are doing things and really are able to bring it to the table or to your team, uh, meeting from. But you know, I, with this digital leadership program that we have, how I just can't count, uh, uh, the times that within, uh, uh, one conversation, um, all the par the participants who have children say, well, my son ha does this. And, and I think, well, this is the conversation you also should have in your team, because that's, that's your new audience, you know? Um, so we ignite this curiosity, um, uh, on many ways. And I think it's crucial. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think that that point about it, you can't, I don't think just have one person that is your innovation, your innovator. You go, this is our head of innovation and they will make us innovative. Actually, it's about culture and it's about the atmosphere of an organization. Yeah. Because good ideas, new ideas could come from anywhere, you know?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Yeah. And we have, and we, um, um, our leadership program is, um, uh, we have developed it ourselves for the cultural sector, but we have developed it with a partner which is enjoying, that's, uh, um, um, a partner we have here in the Netherlands, and they had, and we just included and embedded it and, uh, an innovation scan, they developed it themselves, and we are using it. So at the start of this leadership program, all the participants do this innovation scan where they can see on four, uh, different success factors for their, for an innovative organizational culture where they stand. And that's very insightful. So I think, uh, change starts somewhere that you need to know where to begin. So if you, if you knew your, your, um, your ground level from where you can build and grow and, and, and ignite curiosity, that's very important. So this, um, one of the things is, you know, also a digital maturity scan, but this innovation scan is also very important for that. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And the, you mentioned something there that we, we've spoken about in the past, it that idea of digital maturity and that you don't just go from nothing to, you know, a completely innovative, digitally successful digital first organization. Actually, it's a journey and people need to be comfortable with the fact that it's progression along a scale, and you're not, you can't, sort of, can't skip any steps. You have to go through that process of digital maturation. Um, what's my question in relation to that? My question is, so I suppose we've spoken a bit about innovation and culture and the importance of leadership. Could we talk a bit about organizations going on that journey of becoming more digitally mature from Dens perspective? Are there, are there sort of distinct stages of that journey? Are there, is there an obvious sort of ladder of maturity that organizations move up and, and what does that look like? Or is it a more organic process?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, um, um, is there a ladder? Yeah, I th of course there is, uh, because, and, but I think it's also, uh, about, um, um, people, uh, getting behind the idea of digital transformation. I think that's the letter, you know, climbing up in, in, in growing, um, believers, is that the right word? Believers of this new way. And again, i, I, um, keep saying it in this fun fundamental new business model, which is really changing the way your day-to-day work, uh, is, is, is headed. And that's, that's also scary. So that's, uh, I think the latter is, um, is about, um, embracing people and, and, and making them feel comfortable with this change. And, uh, uh, and some people go fast and other people go slow, and some people just get stuck because that's also part of it. Um, but I just can't say, you know, what I could do is, you know, you have this digital maturity scans, and then they also have these, these steps. People can look that up. But, um, it's, it's very useful to have a digital maturity scan, but then it's just, okay, this is where I am now and, um, what fits my organization to take this step by step and every little step is one, eh, so I also say just do it. Do it. Get a conversation going about, uh, your online audience or, uh, find out, do little things like, um, setting up, uh, a small survey on your websites that pops up when, uh, with your digital content and how people experience it. And, and talk about, um, the results of that, uh, that, that, uh, that small survey, you know, it's, it's, it's all about small changes.
Speaker 1:And final question, you know, we've talked about a lot, um, here, and I think we are both, I think we're both excited and optimistic about the future, and that we do believe that digital is part of the answer for how organizations thrive as as we go into the future. But what specifically are you, are you excited about? Are you excited about how digital might impact forms of culture? Are you excited about audiences? Is it about, you know, organizational transformation? Where, personally for you, what, what, what are you most excited to see?
Speaker 2:Oh, that's a good question. Personally. Um, um, uh, yes, of course what I, what I, if I look back at what I was really excited to see during covid when all this experimentation, um, uh, went was also how, um, digital arts or artists who come from, uh, a very traditional performing background are also able to embrace the digital canvas and make art there. So that's very, very exciting what happens there. But for me, the most exciting thing is, um, um, is how we, um, how, how we are able, because I think that's also a technology thing, but you know, those new audiences, they're also really about, um, co-creating and about participating. That's really what they want. It's much more, uh, than uh, uh, older generations. So how can we, uh, embed or include that in our, um, uh, societal role as a cultural organization to bring in the younger audiences to collaborate, to co-create. And I think online is the way to do it because they're, you know, they're co-creating and, and participating, uh, on every social channel that they are following. And how can we bring that into our cultural institutions, into our artistic stories, um, being more participative and inclusive in that, that would be, that's the thing I would really be, uh, excited about to see that happen.
Speaker 1:Brilliant. Well, I think that is a perfect note for us to finish our conversation. Thank you so much, Micah. I just, you know, the work that Dan is doing, I find really inspiring, um, and I always love talking to you.
