Digital Works Podcast
Talking about all the different things that 'digital' means in the arts, culture and heritage sectors. Tales of success and failure, interrogating the shiny new things and looking at what works (or not) and why, Interviews with digital folks working across the sector and beyond, in-house, consultants, funders, and more.
Digital Works Podcast
Episode 024 - Nicholas Triantafyllou (National Theatre) on the importance of collaboration, what good leadership looks like, and the origins of NT at Home
A lovely chat with Nicholas Triantafyllou. Nicholas is the Director of Information Technology at the National Theatre and has previously held technology and systems-focused leadership roles at the Southbank Centre and the Barbican.
We explored the importance of collaboration, what good leadership looks like, the challenge of getting things done in big institutions, how NT At Home happened, and lots more.
Hello, and welcome to the digital works podcast, a podcast about digital stuff in the cultural sector, my name's Ash. And in this episode, episode number 24, we've got a conversation with Nicholas tri Antifa. Nicholas is the director of it at the national theater and has previously held technology leadership roles at the south bank center and the barbering center, both in London. We talk about how the role of it director has evolved over the past 10 or 15 years. We talk about Nicholas's perspective on how digital and technology teams should be structured in cultural organizations. We talk about the digital literacy of leaders and Nicholas also shares some insights into how the national theaters enter at home project first came about, uh, in the depths of, of lockdown in 2020 enjoy.
Speaker 2:So, so we'll, we'll, we'll, we'll just dive straight in. And I think, um, you know, I, I've known you since you're at the barbecue, but what is your career look like? Where did you start? How did you, how did you arrive at the Barban and then sort of move to the south bank and then to the national theater where you are now?
Speaker 3:Yeah, so, um, my career started, I studied electronic engineering, uh, which is sort of quite sort of engineering theoretical subject, which was always very interesting. I was always a geek since I was a child. So I was really enjoyed that. And that was sort of back in the early nineties, when I guess digital and digital didn't really exist in, in its current form. It was very much at its infancy was mostly about, you know, computers, PCs that helped the finance department to adapt the numbers, uh, and mostly work with financial institutions. So my, my career started in, in the city. So I used to work for, um, for sort of, uh, banks and, and then sort of big corporates, um, for a few years, um, which was very good in terms of the experience was really useful. Um, you sort of really get to see how things are done when an organization has loads of money. Um, but again, you just end up being a small cog in, in a, in a massive machine. And obviously there were very junior roles, um, mostly sort of support roles, but again, it was really, really interesting, um, and really sort of made me realize that how much technology could, could help people, but that it really was at dis infancy that's when windows was, was all the range and, and that was it really. Um, and then by almost a pure accident, got a job, um, working for, uh, quite large charity because I just, I just wanted to sort of change change the sort of the sector I was working in. And that was really interesting because at that point I really sort of realized, um, how technology could enable the greater good in, in, in some respects. And again, how behind that all those sectors were in some respects, but also that, that technology was look more about than just making money. So, um, yeah, and then I sort of stayed in the charity sector for, uh, a few years, again, mostly doing it, support roles, both very much with a big interest and key interest in, in sort of systems and, and understanding how technology can be used to, to enhance submission of an organization. And then my dream job came up, um, at the que I was always a very big fan of the que I used to go there quite, quite often for, um, for concerts, for exhibitions. Um, and actually I took a step back. So actually I took a massive pay cut and, um, I sort of stepped down my role and just, just sort of joined the help desk there, but obviously was with the view of working myself out, which I did. So, um, I very quickly, I had some brilliant bosses there really, really supportive really, really, um, yeah, it was a really good environment there. Uh, and, and yes, I worked myself up and very quickly it became apparent that a digital could so much enhance the experience, um, and digital at the barbecue when I joined, like with most, our institutions at the time was totally at as infancy. There were some really cool projects happening very much in isolation. Uh, but there was no sort of digital strategy or there was no, um, which, which is totally understandable. It's not a criticism. It's just, just how it was back then. And, and slowly. And it was, it really happened without much of, I didn't really intend it to happen that way, but I think eventually digital really became part of what each department was doing. So everyone, every department was thinking through digitally, there was some brilliant programming happening as well around digital. Uh, there was some brilliant people putting together those digital programs and very much what I did, although it was technically in the it department. Um, we did a lot more than that. So, um, you know, uh, we, we launched two websites. Uh, we did some really cool stuff with eCommerce. So, you know, select you on seat, which may sound like total, you know, everyone does this now, but I think the barbecue was probably one of the first institutions to do that. And, and again, because we had some really good people in the box office, in another departments that were really forward thinking, and I was really lucky that I had a good boss and the luxury of, um, my ideas being taken seriously and also to be given the opportunity to grow and also to make mistakes because, you know, you only learn from those and, and, and, you know, everyone has, and I've definitely made quite a few of those as well. Um, so yeah, the barbecue was really useful. Brilliant. Um, I, I still really miss miss everyone there, although it has changed a lot as an organization, a lot of, uh, a lot of really good people have now left, uh, either the sector or they're working at other brilliant institutions. Um, but yeah, the barbecue did not have a digital department as such. Uh, and that was a conscious decision, um, because we very much feel at the time that each department, um, has a digital output and digital needs to go throughout what each team does. And however, we did write a digital strategy, which with, with others, um, that effectively recognized that, so everyone could talk about that. Um, and again, the other thing I'm really proud of is that, uh, we developed a, I sort of, I built up a small team there. Uh, we developed our own website as well. This was the second website, uh, that we, we developed entirely in house. It, it got quite a few awards, but again, it was done brilliantly by internal people that, um, went way above their bay, right. To deliver. And again, up to this day, I think, um, would've witnessed at the, barbing at least up to the point up until recently. I said, I don't know exactly what's happening there. The last sort of year or two was very, very good and, and very much, um, in some respects at the forefront of, of, of, of, of what organizations do. Um, I then joined south bank center, which again was a massive opportunity for me, you know, I, I, I definitely had put in, so I put, it was my second website at the bar and I just, I just got to the point where I was thinking I can't stay sticker. I could have stuck around for a lot longer. I was absolutely loving it there, but I just thought, look, you know, I think the barbecue needs a different perspective. I can't, you know, someone else needs to sort of take, take. Um, yeah, I, I think once you stay at the place for too long, I think you definitely need to sort of branch out a bit and see how other things are done. And also the it's only fair to the organization that, that they get someone else to lead on something as important as that. So a great opportunity did arise at Southbank center, which I absolutely grasp when it came up. And, um, yeah, I went to Southbank center, which again, brilliant institution, um, very different in, in its pace and its mission. And, um, yeah, its vibe was very, very different to the barbecue. The barbecue was very much sort of slightly, um, because of the dynamic of the city of London was a bit more, um, everything was a bit more official was, was done, was done. The pace was much slower. Not because people weren't good at what they were doing, just because you had this added complexity from the city of London, pay this. I love the pace at south bank center, but a very different model, um, with, with how things, um, were down there. So they had a really good digital department, they quite big digital department, the more traditional sort of department around that, which, which, you know, did a great job in, um, yeah. And, and delivering a website again. Um, I just, when I got the job at Southbank center, I, it, it, it fell a bit in some respect, like a bit like a step backwards for me, because I didn't quite do as much digital as I wanted to. And, and, and that was at times a bit frustrating because I really wanted to do a lot more when I could do a lot more, but obviously there was some brilliant people in place there that were doing those things already. So in a way I just felt like hold, I was in a way in my, in my own head, I was only doing half a job. Uh, although I wasn't, but, uh, but yeah, so, but again, it's a great place. Um, I have a lot of time for Southbank center. I had a fantastic team with which I'm still in touch to this day, which absolutely love and adore. And, and yeah, so that was Southbank center, um, where I just thought I could have made more of an impact, but I just didn't really, it just wasn't possible, um, uh, to do that within the existing structure and, and then national theater opportunity came up again, all these things just come up, uh, and you just have to sort of go for it when, when you, when you, when they come up and yeah, I absolutely love national theater, again, a brilliant institution. Um, it reminds me a lot more of the Barban in some respects that it is, um, this far more structured in, in some respects. Um, the pace is, is, is different. It's a lot, but I really enjoy the national about the national theaters complexity. It's a very, very complex organization. Uh, you would never think that just by seeing it, but, uh, it is very complex in a good way. So it definitely keeps me, uh, very, very interested and, and yeah, so again, have a have a great, um, a great team and also really sort of open senior management team. Uh, but I definitely get to do a lot more of what I used to in the barber. And so getting a lot more involved with digital projects, leading those projects or working with people that, that are around that. Um, so yeah, sorry. That was a very long introduction to what I'm of my career.
Speaker 2:Well, I mean, it's been a, it's been a, a long and storage career by the sounds of it and what, what I'm interested in from what you've described and your conversations that we've had in the past is from my perspective, as someone who works with lots of different organizations and lots of different it directors is I would say you are not a typical director of it in that yeah. In, in a very positive that's delivery in a very positive way, sort of you touched on it a bit when you were talking about the south bank, because it feels that yes, you're very interested in technology and clearly you come from an engineering background, you are a technical sort of methodical logical person, but what always excites me about your perspective is you are always thinking about how does this serve mission? How does this serve the, the audience? How does this serve the customer rather than just taking the sort of internal perspective about the most, you know, effective technological solution actually, it's, it's about it's about outcomes, not just about the system and the technology
Speaker 3:Itself precisely, precisely. Yeah. And, and effectively, I think I see my role twofold. I think the role of the, and again, this may sound like a big statement. I think the role of this sort of traditional it department with, with the way it used to be 20 or 30 years ago, I think it's almost like dying off in some respects because technology is becoming easier and easier now, you know, whereas in the past, you really needed to know, you know, how to run email server and file server. You know, there was a lot of a massive piece around technology or boxes and server rooms and people sort of changing backup tapes, et cetera, you know, thanks to the advancement of technology. You know, a lot of these things have become a hell of a lot simpler. So you don't traditionally need as many engineers anymore to look after those servers, however, what you really need. And that's why I see the value of it. Digital is, is, is, is people that do understand the technology really well and can advise the organization how to best adopt it and use it so effectively become domain special specialists. And they can also advise on the slightly more boring stuff around, you know, compliance and security and PCI and all of that stuff, which is really, really important as well. But it's just one part of what I do. And one part of what I think my team should be doing. I think it's very much there too. It's a support function it's that support the organization, but it, it has grown far further than just fixing people's PCs or laptops or max or whatever it does that as well, but it can't just be, do otherwise. I, I just, anyone could do that.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And I think that, you know, in other conversations I've had on this podcast, we've, we've talked about sort of structurally where digital sits in, in cultural organizations. And it, it feels that there's a, there's a difference between performing arts organizations and perhaps, um, collections based organizations, um, in the, in the performing arts, digital has come out of a sort of marketing and sales imperative. Whereas with collections organizations it's come out of more sort of archiving collections, um, space, but what's your perspective on, you know, the organizations you've worked in the organizations you're aware of it from my point of view, it feels like we need to start rethinking the structures that traditionally exist. Because as, as you've described, your, your role is as much about how people are using and getting value out of the technology and the solutions as it is just about, you know, implementing and maintaining that, that solution, the, the line feels like it's blurring between it and digital and so many other things. And it feels like the time is arriving. If it hasn't already arrived, that we need to actually start having some new thoughts about how these structures exist.
Speaker 3:Exactly. I, I, I think for me, the, the key is that the lit digital literacy within an organization is really important. And it's down to the recruitment decisions you make when you recruit people and the individual dependent strategies that there are, you know, to see cuz I, I, I strongly believe that each team should have a digital strand should really fit strand should really think about digital, what that means to them. And it's difficult and it means different people to different people, different things, to different people. And, um, unless you have the right people in post, you will never really know what you can or can't do. So the way I see this working is that I think digital literacy across the organization needs to need needs, needs to rise particular in, in our sector. It can't just be the marketing team. It can't just be, you know, traditional digital team driving this forward because the perspective they have will be very much, it will be quite narrow. And I think all this needs to come together with a strong digital strategy, which effectively, um, is drawn up by everyone that works in, in, in, in an institution that then very much aligns with a mission vision of that organization. So you effectively have a digital strategy that supports and enhances the purpose of the organization and also gives clear guidelines and instructions to the internal teams, what digital means to them. So, um, very often, and I'm sure this, you've seen this a few times, you get people doing what I sometimes call digital vanity project, where you effectively get lots of money from a public funder and you do a project that creates lots of headlines for maybe couple of weeks has cost a lot of money and effort, but completely goes away. And the reason why it goes away is because it doesn't quite align with, with what the organization is doing is just a good tool to get headlines, which that's not necessarily a bad thing. Um, and I think everyone needs to get those great headlines occasionally, but that can't just be the sole purpose of digital. You know, digital is a lot more than creating cool projects and, and, and, and headlines. And I'm not saying we shouldn't do that because it's, it's, that's how you innovate, you know, it's really, really important, but it needs to be something that's also done in conjunction with some really good thinking, uh, about digital internally. So yes, I do think the role of the, the traditional digital team is, I'm not saying you shouldn't have a digital team because I think it's important to have, have that. However, it can't be ideally what you'd want is a digital team where you have, um, people across the organization feeding into that, or with representatives across the organization and maybe someone leading a digital strategy that is very much aligned with the organization now goals and ambition, and really direct that team to output the right things. Yeah. And then supported by a strong it department, for example, that can then do the slightly more mundane staff like, you know, hosting and, you know, all these things that, you know, someone that has some brilliant ideas on how to create a digital learning program wouldn't necessarily not understand. And shouldn't really have to understand because some of that stuff is still very complicated.
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And looking at the, the sort of three big cultural institutions that you've worked at, what are your perspectives sitting here in June 20, 22 about, you know, are there common traits that allow digital stuff to happen more easily? Are there initiatives that you've observed or been a part of that have helped to increase that digital literacy that you've mentioned? You know, I, I, I guess suppose people listening to this are always looking for success stories that they can maybe try and translate to their own organizations. You know, I, I, we, we often talk about leadership and sort of the exact level of cultural institutions have never really had to engage with digital and some of them are engaged and excited about it, but on the whole not, um, is that an important thing to try and achieve or actually can good digital stuff still happen without that, that sort of top level buyin
Speaker 3:It de it depend. I think it very much depends on the institution and, and the role of the executive and how much of a say and how much, um, how much of a say the, the executive has just to give you a really good example, um, at the Barban, um, what was really useful to me was that, uh, at the time Nick Kenyon, who was the, uh, managing director, um, you know, very bluntly told me, look, Nicholas, I don't understand it all. Um, I don't think I will ever fully understand it, but I trust you to, to explain it to me. And I trust that you will have the right people in place to, to see that through. So in a way it was that recognition that he doesn't understand it. So however, he very much gave me the space to, to do what I needed to do. Just to give you a really simple example of, you know, whenever we were running designs and, and other aspects of the website past him, he was very much saying, okay, this, he was very open to say, look, you know, this color looks pretty. And I like it. However, I don't think I should be telling you what color of the website should be, you know, tell me what our audience says. So I think sometimes it's just having an executive, uh, that has that very open mind. And isn't, I think being an executive is quite really hard sometimes because everyone looks up to you and everyone expects you to have all the answers, and sometimes you don't have all the answers. And I think it's, if you're confident executive, you will really say that. And you will say, you know, by the way, I just dunno that. But, and, and I thought that was really, really helpful. Um, again, I think it's really important that the executive, uh, and artistic directors as well, supports digital, and to understand the value of that. Um, just to give an example, uh, for example, Rufus, uh, Norris international theater, when, uh, we were talking about, um, NT at home was extremely supportive of that and really recognized the, uh, value of digital. And this comes from an artistic day director. That mostly is an actor also direct place. So he's very much around physical, you know, space. However, he really recognized the value of digital and, you know, we've had some, uh, really useful discussions around that. Um, so yeah, I, I think it's, it's important. I think more could probably be done, but I think we also need to be realistic that a lot of executives, not all of them, but a lot of executives in the sector probably are not digital natives. They were probably brought up at the time when they grew up, maybe mobile phones didn't even exist, you know, so they may not necessarily, unless they are off a younger generation, they probably don't feel comfortable doing that. And I think it's almost like dangerous. I, I think as well to give, give them too much of a say in some of these things, because you don't want them to go down a path that they think is the right one. And that may sound really compelling because a salesperson tried to sell it to them. And that's definitely happened to me in the past. Not in the, not any, not in any organization I've worked in directly, but, you know, I do remember, uh, the city of London, again, they were sort of, um, looking after the barbecue, uh, sort of from a governance's perspective. And again, I had quite a few difficult discussions, uh, when I was, um, having to explain why I didn't go with SharePoint for that the barbecue's website. And they have been, you know, been told by Microsoft, the SharePoint is the best thing since last spread. So I had to explain to them that a SharePoint is, is, is interesting, is useful as an intranet. And this was sort of going back a few years, um, just to make it clear, but really for an eCommerce website, I'm not quite sure that's the best, the best idea, but again, that was, that needed a lot of meetings with some really senior people that had been told that SharePoint is, is the only thing we should do.
Speaker 2:And, you know, you touched on NT at home there, which was, I suppose, one of the most high profile responses to, to the pandemic in terms of, of digital work. And, um, from an external perspective, looks like it was successful. And, you know, it's a, it's a program that you have continued at the national theater. Um, what, what is your perspective now as we hopefully, Mo are moving out of the pandemic on the, the impact that, that time had on conversations around digital, you know, as back in 2020, I remember a lot of people were saying, it feels like we've suddenly lurched forward five or 10 years. And actually we are not having to explain why this is important anymore. People are like, well, let's just work out how to do it. And I imagine there were a lot of pros that came out of that, but also cons of, you know, team capacity and, you know, trying to monetize this stuff. How, how are, how are you feeling about that, that period that we've just moved through and its impact on digital?
Speaker 3:I know it sounds really may, it may sound a bit strange, but actually for me, the pandemic, because I had literally just started working at the national and then the pandemic strike for me, the pandemic, the last two and a half years have actually been really, really positive for, from a digital it perspective. Because as you said, suddenly people re really realized the value of technology. Uh, I just give you a simple example. When I joined at the national, um, a decision was made just, that was just before I joined, uh, to refresh all PCs at the national. Okay. We're talking about, you know, 600 plus PCs. So of when I came in, I was like, hold on a second. Why, why are we refreshing PCs? Shouldn't we be getting laptops for, for staff and at the time, rightly so. And that was genuinely what, how people were at the time is, oh, the national isn't ready for that yet. You know, everyone still uses their PCs and logs on at the desk and builds home and all of that. So, well, you know, sort of a few, couple of months later, suddenly, you know, uh, that all changed and suddenly have people engaging with teams, people engaging with digitally and everyone suddenly saying, oh my God, it, you guys have done an amazing job, become believe, you know, we didn't value you before. So that wasn't in a way that was really positive. And that's continued actually. And now with flexible and hybrid working, people are far more, um, embracing technology and really seeking the value of it and home life balance and all of that. And again, the same, I guess, is, is there for NT its home. So I, I just need to add that NT at home. Isn't just me that it's a big team behind it. And, and I had a, I had a big contribution to that at the start. Uh, and, um, when we started looking at, uh, streaming. So initially, um, I, I dunno whether you remember, but initially the national put on, uh, some free shows on, uh, YouTube, which, um, we did because we just felt we needed to offer something to the public. And also it was a bit of a test to see how, how the, uh, the screenings would work. And that was a bit of an nightmare to put on. Initially, I'll just give you one example at the time. Um, we had some raw files of data in a storage network in the, in the sort of server room of the national, we needed digital remaster, that file. And obviously, um, these were raw files that were, you know, terabytes and terabytes of data. So the only way we could, we could get it to editors was, uh, we had to sort of get a cab, put, put something on a hard drive that was then sort of whisked along to someone's house. Uh, they were, they were edited. They were then put back on the hard drive and they weren't uploaded by me because I had the faster connection than everyone else. So this was where we were at the start. You know, it was very much like, yeah, you, I mean, if people don't realize how much work and how, how, how we just literally invented it by the day, however, what was really positive at the start was we definitely had the start. It was definitely felt like a startup because we were reinventing everything. Um, we sort of went with this outof the box solution, uh, with Vimeo. Um, and that was deliberate because, um, if we had done this project a year ago, year before the pandemic, we would've done a typical sort of gold plated solution. We would've spent lots of money on it. We would've done a custom development. It would've been a two year project and it would've cost us a lots of money. So we just had to go really fast. And again, it was a lot of work. And, um, however, I have to be totally honest with you. It was extremely satisfying because we saw an end product. Um, the national theater was very lucky in that it had a brilliant in-house team, uh, digital production team already, which was mostly working on NT, um, life, which was live sort of live or recorded screenings of cinema. So we had tons of footage, we just had to remaster it digitally. So I think NT, I think NT ATTO might be a slight outliner in terms of that. It actually, it is very successful financially. You know, we are making, um, you know, not, not millions and millions of pounds, but it is. So we definitely covering a lot more than costs at this point. And, um, and also I have to say that, um, it, it is a lot of work, but we have a really strong team behind that now. And it has very much become part of what the national does and, and the, the national theater is all about being national and getting into disadvantaged communities, getting into, you know, north England, you know, all, all, all these areas that we really have a massive focus on. People don't quite realize how much we do outside of London. And for that, you know, NTA home has actually, and the collection, which, which is another, a strand. We have anti collection, which goes into all schools has been a massive, uh, enabler for people to see experience in the, the theater and also internationally, because when we looked at the YouTube streaming actually with more people, I think dialing and from outside the UK than we had from the UK, no, and
Speaker 2:It, it, it sounds really, you know, exciting actually other people that I've spoken to do look back on, you know, aspects of that time with fondness, because suddenly you've just had a blank canvas and you, people just had to pull together. And as you say, as that sort of startup bootstrapping vibe, you know, just everyone's got a muck in and, and work out how to do this new thing.
Speaker 3:Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, definitely. Although, you know, it was obviously awful for, uh, people that, um, for a lot of people was absolutely awful. Um, for me personally, um, purely from a professional perspective and from a satisfaction perspective, it, it felt a very, very creative last two years. And, and it, and also, I guess for me, it was, uh, it sort of brings back the value of working like a startup in some respects as well, because when you work for large institutions, uh, and I'm sure this is happening in, in the sort of museums sector as well, is things do take a long time because you have a lot of stakeholders and you have to consult with a lot of people and everyone will have a say, and I'm not saying that's a bad thing necessarily, but that does take a long time. So to do something very, very effective, you may ne may never get there because you, and some people will just lose the will to live because they have to jump through so many hoops. And, um, yeah. So that's why I think maybe the sector isn't quite as innovative as it could be, and I'm not saying that's the sole reason, but also the fact that, you know, these organizations aren't set up for, you know, rapid prototyping, they aren't set up for failing fast. They aren't really set up for agile, you know, they're very much set up to see a project through and, and plan it and, and, you know, go to committees and go to the board and, you know, do all these things. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And if we now start to look forward and look at the, maybe the short to medium term, cuz who knows what the longer term looks like, and particularly around digital activity, it feels like there are some positive things around digital that happened over the last two years that we should try and clinging onto. You know, you've also mentioned digital literacy. What, what do you think cultural organizations should really be thinking about talking about focusing on when it comes to their digital effectiveness over, over that sort of shorter medium term, maybe the ne next sort of one to three years?
Speaker 3:I, I think, I think it's very much appraised what worked in what hasn't worked over the last one or two years, because I think that will be different for, for each organization. I think definitely. And I guess a lot of the, a lot of organizations will have learning departments. And again, they really focus on, I would definitely focus on, on engaging with wider audiences digitally. And I think that definitely worked during the lockdown because suddenly people had to get, go, you know, go out to, could not, could no longer go out to schools and had to engage in a different way. So, and that's definitely been very, very effective. I'm not saying there isn't value in the physical presence. And the, I think it's almost like using digital as an enabler using digital as an enhancer using digital to widen reach and, and, and, and talk to audiences that you'd never ever talk to. And let's be honest, you know, getting to London is expensive and a lot of people just can't afford that, particularly with the cost of living prices. However, engaging digitally is a lot cheaper and actually, so in effectively you democratize access that way and you make it much more affordable and, and accessible and on a lot of fronts. The other thing that worked really well was, again, going, speaking on the access front accessibility fronts, um, we had some brilliant feedback from audiences that, you know, hard, hard of hearing or have sensory needs, additional sensory needs. And, and they really enjoyed the output from, from NT at home because this was the first time that they could experience a show without feeling overwhelmed, coming to going into somewhere or that, um, yeah, so, so that was really re positive. So we definitely want to continue that making all the performances accessible and Bloomberg, um, was very gen generous in, in enabling us to do that with, with, with, with some sponsorship. We, we, we got all that. Um, and also, I guess, built upon the digital literacy. I just going back to our learning team at the national, again, we did get more people in with better digital skills and that that already shows. And again, I think those recruitment decisions need to be made, um, to really, I think people just need to move, move. It's really difficult sometimes to insist that someone has digital skills, but this goes back to the recruitment problem. But I think you just have to look really, really hard to find those people and then keep them do the best to keep them
Speaker 2:Yes, the, the ch the challenge. Um, and you mentioned there, you know, you recommend the organization sort of stop and reflect on what worked and it feels like maybe as a sector, we're not always great at that. It's always straight onto the next thing straight onto the next thing. And you've seen with audiences returning in person that people have sort of snapped quite quickly back to what they were doing before the pandemic.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. It's, it's interesting. I mean, it's really interesting because although audiences have come back, uh, and, and, and thankfully the national most audiences have come back, not everyone has come back. And, um, and I know this is a wider problem in the sector, and it's almost like the people that used to come to experience an experience theory that still want to experience data, but may not feel comfortable experiencing the experiencing data. And I guess I know, um, that's also an issue around sort of classical music performances, audiences, particularly this slightly older generation is what do we do there? Because a lot of people still don't feel comfortable going into a crowded room. The other thing we also need to recognize that it is that some people have also may not have missed it as much as they thought they would, and may have found other ways of experiencing the arts. So again, we need to do a lot more with that, uh, to get people back, um, but also recognize that things have changed. You know, things never stay static and, and very often big changes happen as a result of a war or as a result of a quite traumatic or, or a significant event that then have ripple effects for decades to come. Um, and I think the COVID was probably one of those moments where, where, where, where that happened. Yeah,
Speaker 2:Yeah, absolutely. And it does feel like, as you say, even if people are hoping things go back to normal in inverted com that normal is never going to be re you know, never going to exist again, as it did two years ago.
Speaker 3:Yeah. And, and what is normal normally is just something that existed enough as, as a, at the point of time, three years ago, that that was what hap was happening in, in 2020, you know, that's not normal. That's just the recognition of that's how it was then, but, you know, things never stay static, things change, and you just need to be adaptable and, and yeah. And just enjoy the change.
Speaker 2:Yes. And it feels like that is something that you are quite comfortable with. And certainly I've noticed with individuals and teams that are sort of most effective in this area is they they're either very comfortable or actively seek out change and new ideas, and they're inherently curious, and it feels like that's an important principle.
Speaker 3:I think. So I think you have to be constantly curious and also, um, you know, I'm, I I'm, I'm 48 now, but, um, I don't think I know anything re you know, I think, I think you can't, you can't get the point where you think, you know, everything because you really don't know anything and Eddie, you can, you really need to learn and constantly be curious, constantly want to challenge yourself and that, I guess yeah. Otherwise get bored, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And to, to, to finish on, you know, we've talked about a lot of things today, but looking forward, you know, you are working on a lot of different projects. We were, we were talking about earlier. What, what are you excited about either a specific project you're working on, or, you know, a technological trend you're seeing, or an opportunity that you've or conversations you might have had what's, what's sort of getting you excited at the moment.
Speaker 3:Yeah. I think one aspect that's keeping that I'm really interested about, and again, this might be slightly more operational is how hybrid working is going to work going forward, because I think that is going to change things considerably for how, how staff, how, how people at work in the institutions will interact. And, and the fact that we've got there now with, with hybrid working policies and, and I'm really interested to see how, how that will, will pan out. Um, the other thing I'm interested in, and I'm not necessarily saying, I'm just curious to see what will happen there, because there've been so many false starts is, is what will sort of happen in the metaverse? How, how, how will that all fan out? You know, I'm old enough to remember a lot of those virtual, um, reality, augmented reality attempts, which, which, which always failed, um, on, on, on the fact that they're just a 3d television, you know, all these things just failed on the fact that people had to wear something quite cumbersome on their head. Um, however, the potential there is, is huge, particularly for arts and performing and, and, you know, interaction, um, and experiencing theater, for example, experiencing art. So I'm very curious what will happen there again, I'm not at this point a hundred percent convinced we have co got around the very practical, um, how can I say the, the barriers, which I think is very much technology, but again, a lot of really interesting stuff is happening, but again, at this point, I'm not sure, I think this is probably the area we really need to innovate. And I, I know we, we keep innovating there, but, um, yeah, let's see that, that that's really interest that that key really keeps me interested. And again, for the national I'm really, really, I really want NT at home to continue being as successful as it was. I wanted to be even more successful. Um, and I also want the one thing I really want us to do more of, and I know it's difficult and it's complicated is to film. Um, for example, um, when, uh, the national Romeo and Juliet, um, during lockdown that was brilliantly filmed and it, it felt because it was filmed specifically for that sort of medium, it wasn't a film, it wasn't a theater performance, it was something in between. And I just wanted to use more technology to, to achieve something really, really interesting there to sort of feel it's really participate, to feel like you're participating in the performance, but at the same time also feel that you're watching a theater play. So rather than just a film and, and I think Roman Juliet achieved that, but obviously scaling that up and continuing that is going to be very, very expensive and maybe finding easier ways technically to, to, to achieve that outcome without needing to spend a lot of time on filming and crew and all of that. So, yeah. Yeah.
Speaker 2:And I think that, that final point about how the innovation and the new things that have happened over the last two years sort of impact the form of culture. I think that will be potentially the most interesting.
Speaker 3:Yeah. Yeah. Cuz so much, much stuff can be done. And I think the, the problem we have at the moment is it's not necessarily a problem. It's just the fact that a lot of the traditional directors, producers, performers are very much used to the way it's always was done, which was on stage with, you know, which, which obviously, you know, people like the national always do brilliantly. And I don't think there's that experience there and you wouldn't expect there to be that experience there of directing something that is very, very different to that. And again, at that point, you just come in with experimenting and, and being open to failing as well because not everything you do will be a success and some of it will be a quite expensive failure. So it's just<laugh> but you just need to be open to that if you can.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. Well, thank you so much for your, your time today. Nicholas we've, we've covered so much there. And I think there are a few nuggets of wisdom in there that, that are applicable regardless of the size of organization, you know, big or small. And I think interestingly, the, one of the things that it feels like I've, I've heard and I feel like I hear this time and time again is actually, it's not necessarily about the technology. It's about the people and it's about the culture and it's about the mindset that's surrounding the use of that technology. Yeah,
Speaker 3:Definitely.
Speaker 2:Brilliant. All right. Great. Thank you so much. Okay.
Speaker 3:Thanks so much.
