Digital Works Podcast
Talking about all the different things that 'digital' means in the arts, culture and heritage sectors. Tales of success and failure, interrogating the shiny new things and looking at what works (or not) and why, Interviews with digital folks working across the sector and beyond, in-house, consultants, funders, and more.
Digital Works Podcast
Episode 010 - Abby Corfan (Donmar Warehouse) on reimagining work for digital delivery, recreating shared experiences, donations, and remote working
A conversation with the Donmar Warehouse's Director of Marketing, Abby Corfan. We discuss what life has been like at the Donmar during lockdown, our discussions focused mostly on the two big digital productions the Donmar has been involved with; a reworking of Adam Brace's play, Midnight Your Time, and their involvement in the National Theatre's NT At Home initiative with their 2014 production of Coriolanus.
We talk about the challenges (and opportunities) presented by reimagining work for digital delivery, communicating what this new type of work is, recreating shared experiences, donations, remote working, and much more
Hello. Welcome to the digital works podcast. The podcast about digital stuff in the cultural sector. My name is Ash. And in this episode, episode, number 10, uh, we'll be speaking with Abby coffin. Abby is director of marketing at the Donmar warehouse. She was formerly director of marketing at the city of Birmingham symphony orchestra. She's also a board member of the arts marketing association. We talk about Dunbar's recent experiments with digital productions, both in their born digital production of midnight, your time and the NT at home broadcast of curliness enjoy. Hi Abby. Hi, I'm all right. I think going a bit stir crazy as I think everyone is in these unprecedented times.
Speaker 2:How many times are we going to say unprecedented in this podcast?
Speaker 1:Hopefully that's that's it. Now It must be. I mean, it's still being reiterated every time I turn the TV on, even though we're however many months we are into this now. Um, but thanks for joining me for a bit of a chat today about the various digital adventures at the Donmar warehouse. Um, for, for people who may not be aware, you have only just started out the Donmar. Um, I don't know how many weeks before the COVID craziness you, you started, was it maybe only one week? Yeah. Wow. That's quite an onboarding experience. Yeah,
Speaker 2:I started on Monday the 9th of March and by the following Monday, I was writing the statement to close the theater. So it wasn't, it wasn't the first week I was expecting that's for sure. And then you have been working from home ever since.
Speaker 1:Well, and what have, I mean, what have those past few months been like, obviously all theaters in the UK have had to furlough 80, 90% of their staff and I'm sure the Donmar is no different. How, how has that been or as well as dealing with a situation that no theater has ever had to deal with before?
Speaker 2:Uh, yeah, it's been interesting. I think it's the understatement word to use. I mean, yeah, it definitely wasn't the start I was expecting. And, uh, you know, when you join a new organization, you know, I had come in and had to handover days with the previous director and I've met all the team and, you know, you feel like you're going into something very established and that you are, you know, hopefully going to bring some new thinking and new ideas, but that there is a sort of engine that's running. You can kind of, you know, enter that. And of course actually what's happened is, uh, yeah, my whole team is on furlough and I am a department of one. So I'm having to, um, do lots of things that I wasn't anticipating doing within this role, but also trying to think, look ahead and think, what will we do next in this very strange time for, for theater? Um, so it's been very challenging and I think like lots of people it's been an emotional roller coaster. Sometimes it's extremely exhilarating and exciting. I'm going to talk about some of the exciting bits of the job today, and then other times have been really difficult and upsetting and, you know, it's, it's horrible to see, uh, something that you're so passionate about just sort of disappear overnight, I guess. And, um, and the impact that that has on individuals and, and the organization. Um, I should say that everybody, the Donmar is amazing and I've been so impressed with how like resilient and calm and, you know, people's inventiveness in this moment has been really exciting to be part of, but it's, it's, um, yeah, it's a very odd thing. And on a purely practical level, it's a very odd thing to get to know everybody via zoom. Um, you know, and to be trying to build relationships with people over video conferencing is very odd and lots of phone calls. Um, and I really miss that interaction with people. I think, you know, that face to face being in a room with people is how you is, how you feel like you're part of the team. So that is that's quite been quite challenging. Um, and then just like on a purely practical level, you know, one of the sort of weird things, I guess, is the, as you move further up the career ladder is you, you move further away from the stuff that got you there. So I don't, I, you know, up until the start of March, I hadn't done an email campaign for awhile or built a social, you know, built a social media campaign or extracted a list of data, you know, cause I worked with a brilliant team and my previous jobs and, you know, and, you know, uh, in the others, there's a great team who are really skilled at that, those kinds of, um, bits of marketing. So to I've basically had to do like relearn how to do a lot of those things. And it's probably a good discipline for marketing directors to, to get their hands dirty in that way. And I, you know, not complaining about it, but it is, um, it has been interesting and particularly for an organization that, you know, is brand new to me as well from like a brand point of view and, you know, the tone of voice and all of that. I've really had to kind of get to grips with that quite quickly. Um, so yeah, that's, I think that's, it it's been interesting.
Speaker 1:Yeah. I mean, you know, I think that I, as you've indicated there, I've been so impressed with how the sector has responded to this, this, this crisis, you know, the, the creativity and the resilience and the flexibility that we both know, you know, runs deep in this sector has really been so evident in, in everything that, that has happened over the past few months. Um,
Speaker 2:Yeah. And I think it's, it's a privilege to be part of this, really know. I think that's the thing I've got to be really conscious of in that, you know, people are losing their jobs and people are on furlough that, you know, don't want to be furloughed and, you know, there's lots of uncertainty. So to still be working and to be working for an organization like that, don't worry, is it real privileged? So I don't want to at all make it sound like I'm moaning about my workload or anything like that. And I think it's, uh, you know, I've always worked in the arts, I've always worked in marketing. So, you know, this feels like such a kind of seismic moment for the sector and for my, you know, profession to be part of that and to be feeling like you're trying to contribute to the conversation about it is, is, is exciting and terrifying and thrilling all at once. I think because none of us have the answers, do we, you know, we're all figuring this out together. Um, and you know, in all senses of that, you know, what, what the future of theater looks like, but also what we should be doing now and how we should be engaging audiences. Like it's a very live conversation and it can feel very like, um, high pressure to be part of that, I think. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And hope hopefully today, um, we'll, we'll pick away a little bit, some of those new ways of working at, you know, your experience, where when I first got in touch with you, I was very, um, interested in specifically talking about, uh, midnight your time, uh, which is the, the piece that you, the Donmar has delivered digitally over the past few weeks. Um, sort of re-imagine piece with Diana quick. Um, but, but we we've rescheduled this chat a few times and since our original date, you know, you've since also been involved in the NT at home initiative, they screened the Don mods production of Coriolanus Elena's with Tom Hiddleston last Thursday as we speak. So hopefully today's conversation will give us a chance to talk about that a little bit. Um, and I think also your newness at the Donmar brings an interesting perspective because your previous job was not at a theater, it was at a symphony orchestra. Um, and was, what was my question? Is it fair to say that the CBSA doesn't do a huge amount of stuff in terms of putting out product digitally?
Speaker 2:Yeah, well, it's, it's, uh, it's music is difficult to do in that way because of all the, um, you know, uh, restrictions around copyright and, and pay musicians and things. And actually the CVSA, we had started doing some more digital stuff towards the end of my time there. Um, but it was much more focused on digital content. I think that's, what's very interesting about this whole experience is that I've, you know, and in previous roles, I've, I've done lots of digital content and, you know, um, at the CPSO I restructured the team so we can have a content producer. So we had somebody with that real focus and those skills, because it was increasingly a big part of our marketing strategy, but it was, it was content driving ticket sales, and it was content driving attendance. And it was about, you know, expanding the reach of what we were doing in the concert hall. And what we're doing now is making digital art and trying to promote that and sell that in the same way that we would have production with tickets. And so that's the shift that I think we're going through at the Dunbar, but I think I look around to all my peers and all my, you know, all the organizations in the sector are also trying to like pivot a bit and sort of saying actually, you know, digital, isn't just another channel within marketing. It is more than that. And I suppose that's, what's exciting about it.
Speaker 1:So, so let's, let's look specifically at, uh, midnight, your time for people who may not be familiar with the play. Could you just give us a sort of a brief, an elevator pitch? What it, what is it, what's it about who's in it?
Speaker 2:So it's a one woman play it's written by, um, a writer, Adam brace, and it was originally written in 2011 for high tide festival and the Edinburgh festival. And it was directed by Mike Long, her star artistic director at the Denmark PR prior to him coming to the Donmar and it was written for Diana quick. So that was the, you know, the, the same group of artists came together to make this new version. And when it was originally staged, it was staged partly with video, but as a product, as a play with people coming to watch it. So I think Mike realized quite quickly when we were starting to talk about, you know, how do you make theater in lock down conditions? And what could that look like? That this was a really relevant, um, piece, um, that was worth kind of revisiting. And so he worked with Adam and he edited the scripts down so that it became a 30 minute play that could be recorded, uh, remotely. And it's basically about a mother trying to get in touch with her adult daughter who lives in Palestine. And in the, in the digital production, you are basically watching the other side of the video messages that she's leaving for her daughter. So, you know, originally this was basically based on Skype, like, you know, 10 years ago. And obviously now in this moment, we're all constantly on zoom calls. It felt had a lot of resonance. So although it's not about COVID, and it's not about lockdown, the fact that it's about digital communication and this mother trying to reach her daughter says there's lots of layers there about, you know, family relationships, but also about that distance when you're trying to communicate. And a lot of the feedback we've had from audiences to have said that actually they really appreciated the fact that it had that resonance and felt very current because of the format, but it wasn't about COVID, it wasn't a piece of theater about lockdown. So that, I think that's an interesting bit of feedback. Um, so it was all filmed under lockdown conditions, which was what was particularly challenging about it. So Mike directed Diana via zoom, and she recorded each of her scenes, um, as a video message from her webcam and then would upload the files and then like review them. And then, um, and then it was ultimately stitched together. Diana did her own hair and makeup. She chose her own, you know, she wore her own clothes and she took my ground, her house on a video tour to like find the locations and decide whether we're going to shoot each scene. And they did them at different times of day as well, so they could get different lighting. So the whole thing was done completely remotely. And then, yeah, I suppose, as you know, one of the things that's interesting about this is that it was a piece of digital theater made in this moment. It wasn't, um, a streaming of a previous archive production, although we're doing that as well. So, you know, definitely that's a very valid approach, I think, but it felt interesting to be making something new in this time. And in terms of the format, we put it on YouTube as a live premiere, but then we kept it up. Initially it was just going to be out for seven days, but actually we got such good response that we decided to keep it for two weeks. So we did that and we then had a whole donations campaign around it. So it was free to access, but we asked people to donate. Yeah.
Speaker 1:And having, having watched it in its digital manifestation, I sort of, and I've, I've looked at some production photography for it, of the original staged performance. And to me anyway, I've only experienced one, one of those versions, but it feels like the digital version is the, is the definitive version of this piece because having Diana delivering those messages to camera you as an audience member, you feel this sort of weird mix between being directly addressed and also slightly voyeuristic because she's clearly she's talking at you, but not to you, I'm leaving a message for someone else. And I just, as I say, I didn't experience the stage version, but it just feels like this, this digital method of delivery is ideal for this particular piece. Um, do you, do you ha do you know how you mentioned the script was edited, edited down? So, you know, digital attention spans are shorter and I would imagine some changes were needed to be, had to be made in order for it to work properly in the entirely remote production methods you just outlined, but how much did the script change? Do you have any insight into that?
Speaker 2:Mike's focus was very much on it being this, as you say, like 30 minutes felt long enough for a sort of what is effectively a long monologue. Um, but enough time to tell that story and for it to unfold. And you learn things about the character as you, as you, um, each of the messages unfold and, um, you know, and also you needed that time, I think, to build in the backstory of, of their relationships. So yeah,
Speaker 1:It isn't, you're not sat watching a play reading or not sat watching a monologue. It is a piece of theater it's theatrical, you know, Diana, Diana, it gives a really sort of intentful nuance, performance. There's lots of choices being made in the way that she delivers her performance, even just down to, you know, when she goes to end the call and, you know, things like that, where she's looking on the screen. There's so, yeah, as you say, there's, there's a lot going on in, what is it? Lot of detail in
Speaker 2:It, I think, and things that I think people felt they recognized about their own communicating, whether that was with their families or, or, or, or otherwise, but certainly this kind of digital communication.
Speaker 1:I think looking specifically at the sort of, um, the comms and marketing challenge around this project, you know, when, when Michael, your artistic director comes, comes to, you says, you know, we were thinking about doing this digital piece of theater. How do you, what, what are the conversations that happens there around marketing it around the sort of comms strategy around making people aware of what it was going to be?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so I think we, we certainly centuries it, like we would any other production, so it had an announcement release, and it had a kind of moment where we, you know, did the press release and all that sort of thing, um, about the artists involved in the process. And I wrote some copy to describe the production. Um, so that sort of thing was very similar. Obviously you don't have that driver to try and sell tickets. So we, we only announced it kind of two weeks before the streaming of it, because I think in a sense we didn't want to spread it, spread it out so far that people would lose interest and that we couldn't build some momentum around it. So that was a of deliberate choice because it's the time it is. We didn't put any marketing budget against this. We, you know, it was, it was an experiment and it was, uh, uh, you know, we were trying to do something very high quality in terms of the artistic product, but we didn't, we didn't have the budget to spend on a big campaign. So it was very much kind of, um, engaging with our existing audiences through emails, um, and also obviously all our kind of social channels and trying to get some Ganek reach through there. And then we did quite a lot of press activity as well, because actually it was a kind of press worthy thing and Diana did some interviews and stuff. So, you know, it had very similar, um, kind of, I suppose, like milestones that you were doing in a normal campaign, we had lots of conversations about platform and which platform we should use. And, and, you know, I think if we were to do something like this, again, we would absolutely investigate other platforms where you perhaps charge, you know, uh, as an entry fee, as it were up front or ticket price. But it felt, I think the moment when we did this, which was in may, it felt like still nobody was doing that really in the sector. Everybody was still, and anybody who was doing any kind of new content or streaming old staff was doing the, kind of put it on YouTube for free and then ask for donations. So I think, um, so that was, you know, felt like the right thing to do. And then we had lots of conversations about the donation mechanism and how to take those donations. And we, I spent quite a long time trying to understand how YouTube giving work, which I went round in circles and rang various people around Chris units. And how does this work found a real live person at YouTube to talk to, which was very exciting. Um, but eventually got to the bottom of the fact that actually, you know, the YouTube giving thing, which can work very well, I think, and obviously the national use it very effectively. Um, you have to be a certain level of, um, you have to be a YouTube partner, which in turn to do that, you have to monetize your channel. And we weren't at that point at the threshold where we could monetize our time, we hadn't had enough watch hours on our channel, in the periods that they might have, that they measure it in. So we had to kind of work around that and say, well, we can't do it through YouTube. So actually, um, a lot of the advice we received from national theater and others was that the texting to donate thing works effectively for digital content because people are watching it often like their laptop, or they're watching it on their tele and they've got their phone in their hand. And, you know, it's kind of a standard thing now, isn't it, people are very aware of like your text five to donate five pounds, whatever. So we set that up specifically to use for this project. I haven't used it then on subsequent things. And I think the, this were, what were the positive outcomes actually of doing this whole project is that our watch hours have now gone up so much that we have now been able to monetize our channel. So in, we hope that if we were to do something similar in the future on YouTube, we could use the YouTube donation thing. Um, so that's been quite interesting, but I think if I was to do this again, I absolutely would want to have a bit of campaign budget to try and reach new audiences and try and spread the word a bit further. But I think in the time we had and the resources we had, you know, we had to kind of go with what we knew would work, um, to, and, and also I think another point about this was that we wanted to do something for our core audiences and members, not, not to give them as a sort of Frankie, but to keep them engaged with what we were doing. And I guess, I guess sort of to thank them because a lot of them have been very supportive. And when we closed the theater and canceled all the shows, you know, a lot of them have donated the price of their tickets. So, you know, it felt like it was okay that actually it was a dorm audience was watching this. Um, but actually a lot of the research that we did around it shows that we did get some new people as well. Who've not, not experienced it online before.
Speaker 1:Maybe if that that's, that's a sensible, next area to discuss, because before it came down, I had a quick check and it, you know, almost 30,000 views of the, of the video and given that physical space of the Donmar, that's probably more than would see any normal, you know, if you program this show in the space, 30,000 people would not have seen it.
Speaker 2:Yeah, exactly. And actually we had, so we've had almost a thousand views across the whole period I've been up. But actually the, um, the, the thing that's interesting about the having the live premiere moment is you see how many people are watching it at seven 30 on that night. And that was over a thousand people, which is basically four full Donmar warehouse houses, which felt really nice actually that a thousand people are watching simultaneously in this moment. And that was something that was quite important, I think, to, uh, for us all that it had that still had that live element and still have that feeling of like people gathering because that what we're all missing, cause we're not in the theaters, but it also, of course from a marketing point of view is really scary because it reminded me very much of in a previous life I worked at for a dance festival and every year, if they don't specify, we do these massive outdoor dance shows that we'd spend months marketing, there's all free. And that feeling of standing in the square waiting, see if anyone turned off feeling sick, you know, it's very similar to that, but just at my laptop, watching that number kind of tick up as people kind of joined to watch it. So, um, yeah, we were thrilled with that number, but, um, I think that's, what's interesting about this, the YouTube thing where you do have this like live premiere moment, you get that, and then you do get the subsequent views, um, as well. And you kind of build it that way, but yes, absolutely. In terms of like a normal inverted commerce production, you know, it feels like it reached a good level.
Speaker 1:And you mentioned you've done a little bit of research on who the audience was. Could you talk a little bit about what that research has shown you? You know, you mentioned the, the initial sort of focus for this was on keeping the, the known Donmar audience engaged through this, this interval period we're currently in. Um, did, did the data back that up? Was it mostly sort of people who you already hadn't had a relationship with?
Speaker 2:Yeah, so we worked with Morris Hargreaves MacIntyre, who the Dom I've worked with, um, on research projects before. Um, and they devised a survey that we sent out, um, on email. And we will say put, you know, in all the YouTube description and, um, on social and stuff. And we got just over 400 people, fill it out, which I was quite pleased with. Actually I had no sort of preconceptions about how many people would fill it out. Um, and obviously it was a bit of a non exact science cause I couldn't write to everybody who watched the film and say, please fill this out. You know, we had to kind of rely on people finding it. So yeah, the majority of students were like recently engaged attenders who were familiar with the Dharma, but we did get a small audience. It's more new audience. And I think it was, I'm thinking my numbers now one in 10 said they had never been to the Donmar before. So if you look at that sort of, if you extrapolate how many people, um, YouTube say it's around 22,000 unique viewers is, I don't know how they estimate that from 29,000 days, but they did. Um, so you could say around like 2000 new connections potentially. So I think that's like, that's not, that's not bad at all. Um, the, the survey responses time skewed a bit older, which is probably to do with the propensity of people to fill out surveys, which I think is always a challenge, isn't it with a survey like this and, uh, and also possibly the subject matter and the actress and the, you know, the, the, the content itself. So that's something we'd be looking at. We want to interrogate a bit more in terms of the next projects that we might work on and, and, um, the sort of, you know, how we might reach a younger audience, but we also found that, um, 17% of the people watching were from not from the UK, which I think is nice as well, because again, you know, a lot of, if you look at the data of the research that we've done with MHM before, and the, you know, what a London audience looks like. So actually we managed to break out of just our London audience and we had, you know, good spread across the UK, but also overseas as well. So yeah, I think it was, you know, there's definitely like things we could do, but we, I think what was, what was interesting about it was it feels like the audience that know and love the Donmar took a risk and came with us on this digital journey, which is sort of what you want, I think, because you want people, you want to keep that audience engaged and we want to make them feel connected to what we're doing. And obviously, um, a lot of those are members and, um, you know, supporters of the Don well financially. So it feels like a good thing there, but there was still that potential that we did reach some new people. And I think if we had had a wider campaign, then I would have focused that wider campaign on trying to reach new people. So yeah, we were, we were pleased that, and actually some of the comments we have back as well, a lot of the feedback, um, sort of qualitative feedback was around people saying that this felt like, felt like a Donmar production. It felt like the quality was there. It felt like an interesting artistic project. And also it had this intimacy because obviously the Domo is such a small theater and it's famous for having that closeup experience with actors. And actually you got that with Diana's performance because she was, as you say, having that very intimate conversation that you were sort of privy to. And so it was interesting that people picked up on that as well, which was nice
Speaker 1:On, on that subject of sort of audience feedback. I'm interested in how, how that happens around these, these pieces of, of digital activity, particularly the role that social media plays and, and, you know, you mentioned already people sat there with their, with their phones. Second screening is a thing with every other form of media consumption, and I'm interested to see how it's manifesting itself around things like NTI at home. Did you, did you notice, um, a sort of a spike or an increase in, in social media mentions around, you know, whilst you had this, this piece of theater available digitally, was there a sort of a conversation that built around that?
Speaker 2:Yes, definitely. And, you know, there was, there was the moment during the live, uh, 30 minutes. I mean, I should say we didn't really actively encourage kind of second screening during the 30, because it was only 30 minutes and I can talk about how we've just done a different thing with the NT creaminess actually, which is quite interesting, but, um, yeah, it was interesting to see people still did engage with the live chat, which you get as part of a YouTube premiere, but then also social media, lots of Twitter, lots of feedback and comments on the video itself as well. So I think it did, you know, did it, did have that effect because I guess people are used to responding, you know, on social about, about a digital experience in that way, but yes, with the NT at home that we've just done, um, with Corey Lainez with that JC rock who's with the director of production and former artistic director of the Donmar did an Instagram live watch along for the whole of the production with Tom Hiddleston and the leading actor and a bunch of other actors and people involved in the production coming in and out of the live chat. And so I was watching that, and that was a completely different viewing experience for the play and potentially works because, um, obviously we then take it home. They're all productions that have already been shown, both live in the theater and also in cinema. So for a lot of people they're rewatching it and they've seen it for, you know, uh, they've seen it before, so they know what to expect and or because it Shakespeare, it's a play that people are potentially familiar with. So in a sense, you can have that watch long experience because it's, it's enhancing the experience of the original thing. Whereas I think with something that made know your time, where it's much more, you know, not as many people saw the original production and it's obviously a new piece of theater encouraging that second screening might've detracted from people's experience of watching it. So I think that's something that I'm interested to explore, you know, in the future, what we did do, which worked very well for our members and supporters was we did a, um, a Q and a with, uh, on zoom with Diana and Mike after the light. So we had the live moment, they watched the play and then they did this Q and a for four members. And that got some very positive feedback and people really enjoyed kind of understanding that process a bit more and talking to them. And I think that's where some of this additional content has a lot of value because obviously our members are paying, you know, paying their membership fees and donating and supporting the organization. So what can we offer them? That's extra special because obviously as a normal member, they would get extra benefits with if we had plays in the theater. So I think there's like there's room for lots of these sorts of like, um, different types of sort of, as you can sort of wrap around content as you would call it. But for us it felt like trying, we were trying to focus on people actually watching the thing live. I suppose
Speaker 1:You may not be able to speak on behalf of your artistic director, but in how what's the sense internally at the Donmar about how this went as, as an artistic exercise in terms of, you know, re-imagining a play that was written to be performed on a stage, you know, editing that down, re redirecting it and putting it out digitally. Is there the feeling that this was an extraordinary response to extraordinary circumstances, or actually, was it a chance to think differently about what theater is and how it can be delivered? Is it something that the Donmar may come back to and in future months, years?
Speaker 2:Um, yeah, well, obviously I don't want to totally speak on Mike's behalf, but yeah. I mean, I think absolutely it was, he said himself at the time, how lovely it felt to be like making something new in this moment. Because as I say, we, we, you know, you go through this whole period of like closing everything down and refunding everything and sort of stopping stuff. So to be generating something new was really exciting. So we absolutely are having conversations about what next, and what's the next, um, sort of format and whether that format could be repeated or whether it needs kind of, you know, changing. And I think it's a really interesting time watching what other organizations are doing, and everybody's talking to each other about how they present work and what work they are presenting. So that's, you know, it's exciting to feel like there's, there's a new conversation. I think my personal hope is that, which I think is the conversation we're having Donmar is like, you know, we've got this period where we're trying to make digital art because of the circumstances, because of they're just closed because we can't do anything else. And we want to keep audiences engaged and we want to keep our brand alive and we want to be making art, but I would, I think we're all feeling like where that when we can reopen the theater, we don't want to lose that sense of momentum. We've suddenly created around digital. And also we, you know, I think there is a place for it in, uh, in the program going forward. So it's absolutely like a live conversation when we're talking about what does the program look for the reopening season when we, when we can do that. Um, and where does digital fit in going forward? And, you know, I think there's, it feels like lots of organizations having this conversation as well about it. Shouldn't just sit in the marketing department as a content focusing. It should feel, you know, broader than that. And I think it definitely does. Um, so yeah, there's various exciting. I can't possibly tell you it's all top secret, but there are various like interesting ideas being kind of kicked around at the moment. And I think, you know, it's definitely the start of like, uh, a new strand of work for us, which, you know, has got to be a kind of positive. You've got to take some positives out of this unprecedented situation.
Speaker 1:And, and lastly, on specifically on midnight your time, you know, if there are any other theaters, any other director of marketing out there who are considering doing a piece of digital theater. And by that, I, I don't think, I mean, I'm putting out an archive recording of a, of a performance, cause we'll move on in a moment to talk specifically about that type of work, but organizations that are perhaps, you know, the artistic directors, having conversations about how digital, um, platforms can be leveraged to deliver, as you say, art in a new or different way, what would your advice be to anyone who's considering working in this way for the first time having just been through? What could I think fairly be described as a baptism of fire?
Speaker 2:Yes. I think I described that, well, I should have caveated this whole conversation. Say I am not as probably has become apparent, not a digital expert and, you know, absolutely have learned on the job. So, you know, there's lots of, I'm sure there are lots of people who could talk really well about this. So I wouldn't pretend to be the big expert about it, but why I've learned is, you know, you've got to get the, like, there's some very practical things you've got to get, right. Uh, I've learned a lot about the mechanics of YouTube and you know, and social media and things that, and I think you've got to feel confident that you know, what you're doing with that and, you know, ask for help, which I definitely did do. And some very practical tips, always one thing I was, we didn't really achieve with this, but I would do going forward if I was going to do a YouTube premiere is get the video up much earlier. So you've got that direct link to the premiere itself because I think that watching what the NT do with that, they really generate people going to that particular thing and kind of waiting for it. So that's very good. Um, but I think the thing that I am interested in and don't have the answer to is how we describe this work going forwards, what we call it. We had lots of conversations about this. Is it a play? Is it piece of theater? Is it production? Is it a film? Is it digital? Is it online? Um, we started talking about digital production because that felt like the best fit, but I think it's an evolving thing. Isn't it? So I think that from, you know, if I was thinking about advice for someone else, it would be about really interrogating that and where it sits, you know, in relation to the other work that you're presenting perhaps. But I also think it's okay to celebrate the fact that this is not[inaudible], this is an innovation, or this is a new thing that we're trying. It's experimental. I think we're in a very unique time where people are quite forgiving in some ways about experiments because they can see when I say people, I mean audiences, because they can see that we're all trying new things. So, and then in a way that perhaps they wouldn't be, um, in the future unnecessarily, so that's something to celebrate and you know, you're not trying to replicate the experience of people buying a ticket and sitting in a theater. Right. You, you are, it is something different. And I think that's okay. But I also think the quality of it is very important. And, you know, we had lots of conversations about how it still had to feel like a Donmar thing. It still had to feel like a Donmar, um, production, which was obviously interesting for me, cause this is my first online production I've worked on, but I'm reliably informed by my colleagues that it did hit those, those, um, you know, those kind of, uh, I guess those values and those standards, you know, and I think that's, you know, it shouldn't feel like a sort of second best, we're just doing this because we have to, it should still feel like your organization is putting out the best possible work, which I hope that this did and, and, and, and that we can do again. So I think that would be, my advice would be to really interrogate, interrogate that and make sure that it does fit with the organization's program and artistic values more broadly because otherwise, you know, I think there's a danger that the digital stuff does feel second best. And actually this, this is the moment to prove that it shouldn't be, I guess,
Speaker 1:Yeah. Corey, Elena, and tell him, Hey, listen. Um, which, as I said earlier, the NT national theater, um, broadcast as part of their NT at home, uh, project, which is for people who are unaware every Thursday evening, 7:00 PM British time. Um, the national theater digs into its archive of, um, productions that it's filmed as part of its NT live initiative, um, and streams, those archive recordings live on YouTube, and then they're available for a week, um, after the initial broadcast, um, and empty life, perhaps despite its name has not always been, um, exclusively concerned with recording and distributing national theater productions. Um, it has also, uh, recorded and distributed, um, productions by other theaters and its most recent, um, uh, PR program in this series. Um, most recent production in this series was, was the Donmar warehouse has production of Coriolanus from 2020 14, 2014, okay. From two from 2014. Um, and I'm interested in looking at that sort of digital initiative uh side-by-side with something like midnight your time, because I think perhaps to people who aren't, uh, you know, thinking about digital things day in, day out as I am, those two pieces of work perhaps seem very, very similar, you know, if they are both, um, theatrical performances that are being put out on YouTube. Um, but I think hopefully as has just been demonstrated by you on picking the nuts and bolts of the thinking that went into midnight your time a little bit, you know, that was, that was very carefully reformatted really for, for digital distribution. Whereas I suppose NT live is about capturing a live, uh, on stage performance and then, and then putting that out, um, and of course as well that, you know, midnight, your time was put out by the Donmar on the dumb-ass channels and Coriolanus was put out by the national theater on the national theaters channels. Um, and so I just hoping we could talk a little bit about the difference in those two experiences and what you or insights and learnings were from the empty at home experience, obviously as well. Um, this production of Coriolanus start Tom Hiddleston, um, which brings with it, I'm sure it's its own considerations around social media interaction around[inaudible] own, um, fan base, um, and, and sort of managing and interacting with that I'm sure is it's it was its own workload on the night, but, you know, w w we just spoke a little bit about the challenge in describing this new type of work. Could we talk a little bit about the challenge of, I suppose, the brand relationship when the Donmar warehouse production of Coriolanus is being put out by the national theater as part of the empty at home initiative? You know, there's a lot of different messages going on there. How did you know, how did you as person in charge of comms and marketing at the Donmar? How do you navigate that, that, that challenge really, because you could quite easily, I assume get steamrollered by the fact that it's Tom Hiddleston and it's being put out by the NT, um, to a global audience.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I guess so. I mean, I think to give, I would like to give the national theater absolute credit in that they really have actively promoted the fact that this is Donmar production. So, you know, we've been tagged in every single tweet and every single thing. And, you know, our logo is on staff and we're the donations that they're getting through YouTube giving and also on the Instagram live that we did on the night, we're splitting 50 50, you know, they're very much supportive of us and, you know, the messaging within the film of please give to your theater, your local theater or to the Donmar. So, you know, I, you don't have any complaints. Um, but I think it is interesting and it is, I think it, it's also about expectation management, isn't it? Because, you know, we have not got a huge archive of Donmar productions. So, you know, we've put this, we're able to put this one out with the NT, but we're not able to go back through our back catalog and do this. So, you know, it will be, we've already had a few people being like, can you do this one next? Can you do this one? Isn't, it's just, that's just, you know, that's going to be interesting to see going forward. Yeah. The Hiddleston thing is fascinating because obviously I wasn't at Domar at the time and, you know, uh, yeah, absolutely. He has this huge army of super fans who adore him and, you know, who really, it was interesting to see like the difference in some of their comments on the Instagram chat and on the live chat of the YouTube video, versus some of the people who were coming because it's Carolina sort of, because it's the dorm or whatever, but I don't think you can be snooty about that because of course, you know, they're still watching the play and there's an engaging with it, and I'm sure many of them donated and, you know, they're, they're still part of the audience. And I guess we don't really mind why people come and watch it if it's, they're watching it. Cause it's Tom Hiddleston and that's just as valid, I think, as being a big fan of Shakespeare. So yeah, it's been interesting. I think it's also, I mean, it's, it's also challenging to you come back, you know, have to go back to something that obviously not only did I not work on, but actually I don't have anybody around me that worked on it either. Cause they're all on furlough or they were, or actually I have quite a new team anyway. So even if I was ring them up, I don't think they would, they were here. Um, so trying to go back through the archives of images and videos, I mean, all of this working remotely stuff probably taught us all, I think, to be better at organizing our filing systems generally when you're trying to find things from a distance. So that's been interesting, but what I have learned about, uh, doing it, I think is, you know, just some very practical things in terms of how they structure their campaign and, you know, it's really systematic and organized as you would expect. And they're doing this every week, they've got a kind of a, sort of, not a performer, but they've got a kind of like, you know, sort of set of things that they try and hit in terms of the kind of content they put out about it and the messaging and things. And that has been like really fascinating too, to be a part of. And I think it's, they are doing something really interesting in terms of, you know, having this almost like weekly schedule and this moment. And I mean, I'm sure that they're doing research and insight into it, but how, how they can understand if they're building a regular audience for this, if it's the same people coming back week on week to experience theater. I think that would be really interesting to understand. So yeah, nothing but kind of positive experiences from our perspective, I think clearly I don't know how much it has translated to somebody watching in Hong Kong that this was a Dahmer production, but I think we gave it our best shot of kind of making sure that that branding was everywhere. And that, that sort of crediting was clear. And as I say, going back to the kind of second screen thing and the Instagram live, you know, we did get to experiment in a way that we perhaps wouldn't have what we didn't do with midnight your time. And we wouldn't necessarily be able to do with other new work. So having that sort of archive performance as, as, as, as it were offered an opportunity to try something different. And I think it was new for the NT is what, I don't think they've done an Instagram watch along either. So you'd have to ask them if they would do it again. But I think it created this kind of different experience of watching theater, which was kind of exciting
Speaker 1:And something that I'm interested in. So obviously both the empty at home, um, project and midnight, your time, that was stuff that was put out for free. You didn't get it in any way in terms of a data exchange or financial transaction. When I was talking with, well Kettler, who's the artistic director of MCC theater in New York. And they did, um, a piece with, uh, Oscar as a compressor to me where they did, they sold tickets for it essentially. So that allowed them to capture data. And about 80% of that audience was entirely new to the MCC database. I was just wondering if you've seen any sort of, um, tertiary benefits in terms of, have you seen more people signing up to your email newsletter or have you seen more people following you on social media or, you know, are there any, has there been a sort of noticeable halo effect in terms of any of those sorts of metrics following both midnight, your time and the Carolinas and your home stuff?
Speaker 2:We definitely have seen an uptake in like an increase in subscribers on, um, social media and, and particularly on YouTube actually. So, which is then the pressure is on then to put more content on your YouTube channel to, to reach that audience. Um, we did also make about 10,000 pounds in donations for midnight your time. I don't know if I said that across the, uh, texting donating thing and the, um, and the website. So I think those are, that's a really positive thing obviously. And, um, the donations are still coming in for creating this as well, which is brilliant. So you, there are sort of tangible, measurable kind of outcomes that you can see, but I think, you know, we, we very much, didn't go in to doing midnight your time with some specific targets in mind. You know, we didn't say we want to increased our subscribers by this, or we want to get this number of audiences because it was so unknown. And we had no idea, you know, we're, we're operating in such a different world to the one we were two months ago. So it felt like a kind of, we're going to put this out there and we're going to, you know, it's a piece of art that we're proud of and we think is, is, has value, but we weren't sure what the audience reaction would be intrigued. So that's been really interesting. And I think, I guess going forwards, we should probably put some of those sort of targets or at least kind of measureables, um, have those upfront in our mind perhaps. But, um, yeah, I think the, the, the challenge is also with a lot of this stuff is how frequently to do it, which I think is where the NT thing is interesting because they are doing it every single week. And I don't know how long they can carry it. I don't know what their plan is in terms of how long we're going to carry on for and how many more productions they've got. But, you know, actually that's making it a real kind of moment, whereas we just don't have, we don't have the capacity or the resources to be doing. I mean, not your time every week or every month, even. So when we do other stuff will become important, I think. And when we schedule it and the relationship, you know, and I suppose there is an interesting question isn't there of like, is it important for people to watch everything that you put out digitally or does it matter? It was okay if they dip in and out and they like your thing and they, you know, go to someone else for another thing in the same way that you don't often get that many people that would come to every single show in your season, you get some, and you get those at your most loyal inner circle, but there are going to be some people who particularly avid there to go as who go and see one thing at the Donmar and one thing at the national, and then one thing at the old vehicle or whatever. So yeah,
Speaker 1:That the issue of money was going to be where I ended up finally, because, and it's interesting that you, you were happy to, to share how many donations you came in that came in off the midnight, your time campaign. Do you have any data that you can share of how that let's say it's 10,000 pounds of donations? Was that mostly small donations sort of five pounds or, or less, or was it a few hefty ones and then made up by play smaller ones?
Speaker 2:I think it was most, well, the texting was definitely smaller ones in between five and 20 pounds. And then I think generally people went on the website if they wanted to give more than 20 pounds, you know, or, or a specific amount or something. So a mixture. I mean, yeah, it was, but it was mostly, you know, lots of people doing a five or 10 or whatever, which I think is encouraging because it's, that is, is sort of people equating it to the value of the experience. Like I watched this, I'm going to pay you a five or as if I was buying a ticket. And certainly I've noticed that with the feedback on the correlators thing, a lot of people said, I've, I've, I've paid for my ticket kind of thing. Is there, is there sort of message on Twitter, which is interesting. Cause I think, you know, rather than saying I've donated, they're saying, um, it's effectively like, you know, pay what you want, isn't it kind of model. So yeah, I think that's that, that is what's going to interesting in terms of like equating value. If you do do something where there is a gateway and a paywall, and I know that like other colleagues and other theaters and organizations are kind of grappling with this at the moment, because it's like, what, what value do you set that? And how much do you say is a donation? How much do you say it's the covering the cost of the production and so forth. So from Fred, definitely an answer to that, but I'd be very interested to know what other people think, because I think it's a very live conversation and, you know, I'll be really interested to see how the old Vicks project goes, where they've got a range of prices. Yeah. So there's, there's lots of models of different people doing it different ways. And you know, I think that's quite exciting to see everybody kind of experiment, but we also do have to make the point that we're all charities, we're all organizations that are facing a massive, like, you know, cliff edge and, you know, we, we do need to survive. And, you know, we talked about all the lovely things about this stuff and why are we doing it from like an artistic point of view, which is obviously why we'll work in the industry that we do. But there is also a very real issue in that we need the money to keep going. And I don't think we can be shy about saying that. And I don't think people are being shy about saying that. And so that was it. And that's certainly, I think, quite effective the way the national do that in terms of their messaging around, you know, donating, um, in, you know, in return for access to this really high quality content.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think it like you, I'm really intrigued to see all the different types of business models, fee structures, that's cropping up around this type of activity. And I think it's essential that we, as a sector are, um, generous in sharing what works and equally, uh, sort of ruthlessly clear about what does not work, uh, because unlike, so, I mean, if we talked about Chris unit earlier, um, Chris and I over the weekend, we're talking about an article that I shared with him that equated, um, the moves the art sector has made recently and making lots and lots of things available for free, um, online with the moves that the newspaper sector made about 10 or 15 years ago, where they made everything online for free and have essentially spent the last decade or more trying to work out how to put that genie back in the bottle. And unlike the newspaper sector, we do not have the volume of revenue that's going to afford us the sort of time and space to make mistakes at that level. Um, so I think quite quickly, we were all going to have to move towards a model that allows us to monetize to whatever degree, some of this, this new digital activity.
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think that's right. But I think also we, you know, we also, hopefully the end is in sight of this process and we will get back into our buildings and we will be able to sell tickets and, and resume the way that we made money before. But I think it would be really disappointing if we lost some of the stuff that we'd done in this period. I think there's, there's, there's a space for that as well. And if there is a way to continue to make digital content, when we're back in theaters that is still making money, then that would be like the most positive outcome. And I hope that, that someone figures out that we crack that particular thing. I also think that we have gone like already, doesn't it feel like being at the start of June, like the start of the lockdown and how people were feeling about content and what they're doing has changed. I think that, I think the general mood is shifting as well and, you know, people are us people's circumstances themselves are changing and you know, so it's such a, it's such a shifting environment and we're trying to keep up with it and trying to offer something and, um, you know, get the tone. Right. And as I said at the beginning, like, you know, when we put this out, nobody was charging for content and now a lot more people are. And so I think that's really positive there, it feels like there's a shift. And, and the, um, survey we did, we did get feedback from people saying, we would pay for this, you know, this is, you know, this was good enough as quality was great and I would pay for it next time. So I think the appetite is there. And I think also the campaigns that all the different arts sectors, the theater, um, you know, UK theater and everybody is doing to kind of highlight the fact that these organizations are at risk, um, adds to that sort of motivation for people, I guess, to donate as well, hopefully. But yeah, it's, uh, I totally think the analogy with, uh, with media and the newspapers is a, is a good one, but I suppose I, I hope that we will all be back in the theaters before long offering and that people will still want to come. I think that's the thing. I think people, I think people will still want to come. I have faith that people will want to get back into, um, live performance. It might take a while and it might be, uh, you know, not quite what we are used to initially, but, you know, I don't think, I don't think this experience is going to make people not want to gather in a space for a shared artistic experience. I really hope not anyway, because that's why I used to get up in the morning. Now I get out of bed to do digital things, but it used to be, you know, that, that is the motivation for myself personally, of like sitting in a, in a theater full of people that you've helped get there and been part of that pro that sort of behind the scenes process to have an audience around you. And I really hope that we can get back to that sooner rather than later, and that this digital stuff enhanced is that, and doesn't replace it I suppose.
Speaker 1:And on that note of hope, thank you so much for your time.
Speaker 2:Oh, thank you. Thanks very much.
Speaker 1:Thanks so much Toby for taking the time to speak with us in amongst her lockdown, chaos, she's moved, moving cities from Birmingham to London. She's also moving house. She's got a young child. Um, so I really appreciate her taking the time to speak with us in amongst all of that. Uh, if you want to get in contact with any of us on Twitter app is on Twitter at API core fan. That's a w D Y coffin, C O R F a N. I am at big little things. And digital works is at digital underscore works underscore until next time look after yourselves.
