Digital Works Podcast
Talking about all the different things that 'digital' means in the arts, culture and heritage sectors. Tales of success and failure, interrogating the shiny new things and looking at what works (or not) and why, Interviews with digital folks working across the sector and beyond, in-house, consultants, funders, and more.
Digital Works Podcast
Episode 025 - Kati Price (V&A) reflecting on the impact of the pandemic on digital thinking, teams, and hiring, the importance of leadership, and being excited about the future
Our first returning guest! Another brilliant conversation with Kati Price. Kati is Head of Digital Media and Publishing at Victoria and Albert Museum in London and was one of the first guests I had on the podcast back in early 2020 (that chat is now our most listened-to episode).
We reflect on the turmoil (and progress) of the last two years, the impact that the pandemic has had on the thinking around digital in the cultural sector, the challenges everyone is facing around retaining and hiring people, the importance of good leadership, and what she is excited about for the future.
Oh and Beyonce, we talk about Beyonce too.
Hello and welcome to the Digital Works podcast, the podcast about digital stuff in the cultural sector. My name's Ash, and on today's episode, episode number 25, we've got a returning guest. I speak with Cari Price. Cari is the head of digital media and publishing at the Victoria and Albert Museum in London. Cari was one of the first guests we had on the podcast back at the start of 2020, just before the Covid Pandemic, uh, episode four, if you want to go and re-listen to that conversation. And in today's chat, we reflect on the two and a half years since we last spoke, uh, the progress around digital conversations, but also the very real challenges that everyone has had to face as ever. Cari has a insightful and articulate perspective on all manner of digital considerations, uh, from supporting and nurturing teams through to conversations around digital leadership and digital strategy. There's lots in here for everyone, I think. So enjoy. Hi Carti, and welcome back to the Digital Works podcast. You are our first returning guest. Great to be back<laugh>. And I was listening back to the chat we had in February, 2020, um, and it was very much a pre pandemic conversation. We were talking about what are you looking forward to over the next 12 months, Um, and you didn't say being told to stay in my house for for months on end. Um, so I'm hoping we can reflect on what the last two years has meant for, for people like you heading up digital teams in institutions, what it's meant for sort of the discourse around digital in the sector, um, and all sorts of other things. So, looking forward to our chat today. Um, and because we've spoken before, I'm not gonna ask you to give us a potted version of your career, which is normally my opening opening question. Instead, I'm gonna refer back to a few things that we, we touched on last time. Um, and one of the things we talked about was how people leading digital in conversations can get their voice heard in, in those strategic conversations, how they can insert digital into the, the, the conversations at the top table. Um, we talked about getting your pointy elbows out. Mm-hmm.<affirmative>, I suppose, or other. My perspective is that the pandemic for all of the, all of the bad that it, it brought to the world actually suddenly digital was, was a huge priority for organizations because it suddenly became the only thing that they could, could do. Was was that your experience at the vna?
Speaker 2:Uh, absolutely. And, uh, the subject of lots of conversations then and since, um, and the, in fact, people are doing PhDs on this very topic. Absolutely. It's, I guess a bit of a double edged sword in that yes, there was a lot more attention and focus, which was brilliant, and a sudden realization that there's this massive digital opportunity. And I don't think that was a sudden realization for all lots of organizations absolutely recognize the role that digital plays and the potential in terms of reaching audiences. Um, but the downside is that then puts a lot of pressure on digital teams to deliver more of what they were doing already. And I think with that came a lot of stress, a lot of, uh, almost like a hose pipe of, uh, ideas requests. Um, and that puts a team in quite an interesting and challenging position, both in seizing the opportunity, but also managing, um, a lot of inbound requests around how to do things that normally take place in buildings and do them online, which have never really seen as the end goal of any digital activity, I think is sort of, you know, people talked a lot about online exhibitions and virtual galleries, et cetera. And I think just using those physical paradigms and then putting them in a digital context is not the key to good digital thinking. Um, instead to think about, you know, what are those narratives and how do we draw from what's happening in buildings and create new experiences, new content formats for online? And that requires quite a lot of dialogue to get people to understand that dynamic. And so digital teams found themselves saying no a lot. And, uh, often we're saying no in the polites way, because often there's a lot of potential demand and relatively small resource to actually, you know, um, service that, uh, and at the same time we're trying to think strategically and, um, opportunistically about what might be in this, this new context of everyone being at home and on their devices and where, where, you know, this massive opportunity. So I think yeah, recognizing that that took a lot of emotional neighbor, um, not just for digital teams, for people who were still left at the museum working and not on furlough, it was difficult for those on furlough. So it became a really divisive time as well, I think, especially with teams that were split across those who were furloughed, those who weren't. Um, and that that did yeah. Take its toll. And I think I'd say, not to go get straight off onto a really gloomy start, but I think it, we are still suffering the sort of, you know, burnout I think of the last two years. Um, certainly my team is, and that's something I, I recognize and I think what we're dealing with now is possibly, you know, the fallout of, of lots of what happened then in terms of people just having, you know, a lot to do and continually a lot to do even though the doors are back open. Um, and that's, yeah, that's, that's challenging and that puts a a, a real onus on leadership to digital leaders leadership more broadly in making sure we're looking after our people. They're the most important part of what we do.
Speaker 1:Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, that emotional labor point, I think is, is key. You know, suddenly the weight of entire institutions rested on often quite junior members Yeah. Of, of the team, um, who were, as you say, suddenly having to field demands or expectations from leadership in a way that they probably weren't used to. Um, and that was something, the, the sort of, uh, digital facts similarly of physical experiences with something we touched on last time. And if, if those were the types of conversations initially at least, that, that maybe you were having or you were aware that peers were having at other institutions, did you manage to move people on on from that and get them to understand that actually digital is a different shape, a different type of experience, and so therefore it needs to be a different type of conversation about how you leverage
Speaker 2:That? Yeah, Um, absolutely. And I think, I mean, what was brilliant about that moment was that, um, well two things. One was we saw a shift towards people valuing digital engagement in the way they value visitation, um, phys you know, physical visits to the museum. And I think there's still work to do in really quantifying and understanding that. But I think we've definitely seen that shift, which has been really good. And then the second point, I've completely forgotten<laugh>, um, um, no, the second points is that, uh, we saw greater collaboration internally between different teams by thinking, by really unpacking what, what does, what are good measures for digital audience engagement? What, what does that look like? And how can we collectively work towards that end? We saw much more internal collaboration and we've continued that sense in having much greater connection between internal teams across, um, digital marketing, comms, membership events, teams learning, et cetera, to just work in a much more joined up way. And I think that's, we've held onto that, which has been really, really, you know, productive and successful. I think people often talk about museums and galleries and heritage organizations has deeply siloed. Um, I think this last two years has, has led to a de siloing because possibly cuz we're not in the physical spaces that physically silo us, Um, but also mentally and conceptually we are sort of more aligned towards common goals, I think. And audience engagement online is, is one of them and a, a powerful one. And I think that's hopefully here to stay in terms of being at top of organizational agendas.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And that point around sort of inter departmental collaboration is something that I've heard from other, other people that I've spoken to as a, a positive outcome of just the way that everyone had to work through the pandemic. Cuz it was such a, a unique set of circumstances where almost every institution was trying to do something new. Um, and you talked there about impact and engagement, um, and that was something again that we touched on last time. Forgive
Speaker 2:Me if I'm just repeating everything I said. No,
Speaker 1:No, no. I, I think that what this proves is, you know, the, the, the issues and priorities that you were identifying last time suddenly and very tangibly became real for, for almost every cultural organization, whether they'd been thinking about them up until that point or not, they suddenly had to engage with that. Um, you know, there were funders that stepped into that moment and were quite generously funding digital work, but they were perhaps asking questions and making expectations of organizations that hadn't had to think in that way before, or hadn't thought in that way before around, okay, well how do we measure the value of an online experience? How do we measure engagement? How do we measure impact? Um, and again, reflecting on your experience at the vna, do you feel that your understanding of those more qualitative metrics has, has evolved over this time because suddenly, you know, everything was hyper focused on, on those types of considerations?
Speaker 2:Absolutely. I think, um, I think we've refined our understanding, a collective understanding of audience engagement, um, and how we, how we measure and value that, but also how we think about our different channels in our platforms and how they work collectively. Um, and thinking about commissioning in smarter ways so that we are thinking about how different audience members will find and discover and enjoy the stories of the VNA through those different channels. Um, but make sure that we are really refining our offer for each of them, but thinking collectively around how we commission smartly as well. And especially in a context of dwindling funds, et cetera, uh, it's much more efficient. But I think from an audience perspective, it makes for a much more cohesive experience online. And one, one that's much more, um, framed around your particular interests and your modes of behavior and those different channels. So how we show up on TikTok is very different to how we show up on Instagram to what you might discover on YouTube or on the main website.
Speaker 1:And, and that sounds like a, a hugely positive like maturation of the conversation at the vna. Um, you know, you, you mentioned earlier that suddenly, you know, during the pandemic digital teams were expected to be able to respond to this opportunity mm-hmm.<affirmative> as well as continuing to do all the, the day to day keeping the lights on stuff. And, you know, I know your team launched a, you searched the collections, explored the collections, you've launched a website redesign recently and you did lots of experimentation through that, through that time. Now that something of a pre pandemic status quo might be trying to assert itself or certainly that, anecdotally I've heard from other, other organizations that that's the case, you know, that the snap back to the, the pre pandemic norm is quite, um, assertive. Has that been the case at the vna? Are you managing to find space to continue to do bus business as usual in tcom alongside experimentation?
Speaker 2:Yeah, I think, um, what we did successfully was balance doing new stuff and experimentation. And that was with, uh, generous outside support and funding that we are in a really privileged position to be able to access. Um, that allowed us to do things like, um, the Alice in Wonderland VR experience with HTC five for an exhibition that, uh, was delayed because of lockdown. So it made us think very differently about how we deliver a VR experience to people outside the museum. And it made us think differently about how we structured that narrative, how we, uh, packaged up that content to be available to an at home audience as well as, um, in, in the galleries once the museum was back open. But at the same time, I think really, um, building on the good foundations of what already existed. And so, um, we have a bank of incredible content that was already there. It wasn't, you know, there was a push to make new stuff. And I think what we did a lot of work around was highlighting what already existed and looking at our digital channels to, you know, drive more people to existing content. Um, it also allowed us to explore, I think more, um, long form content formats. And that was super interesting in terms of behaviors, um, during the lockdown that we thought might just be a lockdown thing that people had more time or inclination to be on their devices and engage with long form content. So we saw people looking at Leonardo DaVinci's, kod Xes, we saw people, you know, really high dwell times as people were looking through that sort of content. Actually, there's a great example. One of my team, um, produced a film around a watercolor artist creating this, uh, watercolor of a pomegranate and it's 42 minutes long and that was launched relatively recently, um, but still in the sort of 2021 period. And what's super interesting is that people are still watching that and they're still watching to the end. It's actually one of our best performing pieces of content in terms of, you know, people actually staying till the very end. Um, and the, the, you know, the, the stats around that are fascinating in that most people watching that are 16 to 34. So it's an interesting counterpoint to people wanting a sort of, um, lane, you know, lean back, algorithmically fed social experience that actually people are really engaging in long form content in new ways. And that feels like a behavior that's here to stay. I think people are, it wasn't just a lockdown thing, it's really reassuring that people are still engaging with those stories and still are making time to engage with them. And it gives content teams an exciting opportunity to think about what that means in terms of the different stories we want to tell about our collections and really dive into creative process in, in detail.
Speaker 1:And it sounds like from the two examples you shared
Speaker 2:In detail,
Speaker 1:And it sounds like from the two examples you shared there, both sort of how you took that Alice exhibition out of the, the physical space and also the point you made about commissioning content that actually the impact on the work of, of your team and exhibitions colleagues and curatorial colleagues might be quite sustained actually, as you say, it wasn't just this, this two year period and actually then we get back to being a museum as normal inver come as actually there's been a shift. Yeah. And of course not everything will stay shifted, but that we are reshaped, we are sort of definitely how we exist now is quite a different thing to how we existed at the end of 2019.
Speaker 2:Yeah. And that's both an internal thing in terms of how we work together, how we collaborate internally. And it's an external thing in terms of some of those behaviors were very specific to a moment in time, but some of them, you know, that audience appetite for content about making and, you know, long form content is absolutely here to stay as well as things that are just more short form and entertaining. But it's, it's been really interesting to think about what that shift in audience behaviors and appetite means for how we make and cur content online.
Speaker 1:Yes. Cuz I suppose the last two years forced people, more people than ever before to engage with digital content to whatever degree, you know. So suddenly people are perhaps having the opportunity to try things they may not have done before. And equally, people who may be, have never engaged in using their phone beyond, you know, texting, were suddenly actually using it for, for cultural experience. And I think the, that pattern you, you remarked on there between there being a, a push towards short form, but also very long form is something I've spoken to Matt Locke at story things about that he was noticing sort of pre pandemic. Um, so it's gonna be really interesting to see how many of those audience behaviors stick, you know, as we move into 2023 and and beyond. Um, but I think we've talked about, I think we've managed to be quite positive there, which, which I feel feel is good, you know, that
Speaker 2:We start.
Speaker 1:Yeah. But I do, I obviously the sector has been, the whole world has been through this traumatic period, you know, millions of people have died, millions of people's lives have been irrevocably affected and the cultural sector is not immune to that, that, you know, teams are smaller institutions are dealing with sort of a constrained financial situation in person attendance is maybe not the same as it was prior to the pandemic still. And certainly again, when I was listening back to our last conversation, we both mentioned people we know in the sector, specifically Rob Coston, who was at the National Museum of Scotland and dfi who was at the National Museum Wales, both of whom are no longer in the museum sector, they've both moved into, into government digital services. Um, and that feels, uh, reflective of a wider, I suppose, brain drain really. Yeah. Um, from the sector of people who, who had been in the trenches for years, who deeply understood the, the challenges and opportunities that the sector was trying to engage with, as well as being, you know, really smart digital thinkers. And I wonder if, you know, is that something you've experienced at the, at the vna and do you have a perspective on how the sector should be thinking about this reality?
Speaker 2:Um, so yeah. Well, while you were listening to our last podcast on the Way, and I was listening to Beyonce's Break My Soul, and it really captured a moment, uh, as well as being a brilliant song. It, it just speaks to us all having gone through this moment where we're just questioning what we're doing, how we're doing it, what our priorities are, and, you know, we're all looking for new motivations and new foundations. Um, I'm not sure if, if DAF and Rob was specifically inspired by Beyonce to make move out of the sector, but, um, I know that I've chatted to them and they're good friends and, and it's not without a lot of, uh, discussion, reflection, a questioning, because they're both have been in the cultural sector for a long time as of many of us. And we are all in this sector because we are passionate about it. We really care about culture and the, you know, opportunity for digital to really change how people engage with culture and open it up to, to new audiences. But I think it's such a, such a difficult time for our sector. Um, and it has led to people leaving lots of, lots of people within the sort of digital side of the cultural sector, but it's, it's affecting not just digital teams, it's affecting curatorial teams where people are just thinking about what they do and whether they can do that in new context, in new ways. And thinking about contracting, thinking about working the commercial sector, thinking about other mission led organizations outside of the cultural sector. And, um, I think that sort of remuneration is an issue. Um, we've, we're facing churn in my team. Um, people have left where we've previously had quite low churn. And it's because, um, people are thinking about building on the foundation of all the amazing things that you learn within the cultural sector and taking that to new sectors. And I think that's exciting for everybody personally. I think it's a big shame for the cultural sector more broadly because I think we do see a potential brain drain, um, particularly I think around digital skills where it takes a while to understand how the cultural sector operates. So things that are very specific to how digital works within our institutions. Um, and I think it's a, it's a big shame that we'll see, uh, probably continue to see lots of people leaving our sector. Um, but at the same time, I think there'll be an opportunity for other people to enter and come in with brand new ideas. And it'll be interesting to see what happens next. But I think this is the beginning of quite a big shift and probably quite a few people leaving digital roles within our sector, much as I hate to to recognize that. But, um, let's see what happens next. But I think it's part of this bigger context of people thinking very hard about what gives them motivation. What what does, you know, work life balance look like? What's meaningful work? Where do they want to work on what terms? And being much more in charge of their own, you know, choices and working styles and context.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And you know, everyone's had two years to context long and hard and, you know, everyone's had two years to priorities Their priorities long and hard about their life and their priorities. Abso absolutely. And as you know, as someone who has a, has a team, you know, that, that you have a responsibility for and you know, as you say, you're recruiting. And what is your perspective on things that institutions could or should be doing to make the cultural sector somewhere that is attractive, that retains its, its people, um, obviously you mentioned pay there, and I think that's, that's been a longstanding issue in the sector. And again, that the, I know the research that you've carried out with deaf really identified remuneration as a key consideration. Um, but you know, I think, again, this is something that, that I've been seeing certainly in my peer group. Money isn't everything for for many people now. What, what else should the sector be really properly engaging with around working conditions?
Speaker 2:I think that there's, there's going to be a shift away as, as my research with D showed, um, that there's, as organizations material, they're gonna be shifting away from centralized teams to digital being more dispersed across the organizations. So I think, um, organizations will and are investing more in making sure that digital skills are spread more broadly across the organization. So it's less incumbent on central teams to do all the digital work. Um, cultural organizations have so much to offer. I mean, it's, I think it's what keeps many of us in these roles is that there aren't many other organizations with the breadth of what we do. It's, um, a, a digital role, agricultural organization span so many different interesting areas, not just around storytelling with incredible source material, um, from collections and galleries, et cetera. But also thinking differently about, uh, commercial opportunities, thinking about, um, immersive technologies, thinking about, um, collections data and what could be done there. There's this whole wealth of stuff that you can do and get involved in. It's just super exciting. It also means for, you know, a workload that's spread across many different areas. And I think, um, that's why it's so important that organizations prioritize. Um, and I think that's what the, the sort of lockdown moment, the the pandemic moment helped us do was keep some focus. And I think cultural organizations need to be really clear about mission, vision and what the priorities are. Cause we could all be doing a lot of things, but saying very clearly, here's, here's what good looks like, here's what we're all aiming for, um, to bring our collections and, and our cultural stories to the world at large. But that's incumbent on having a lot of really strong leadership. And I think, you know, um, it's not just about digital leadership, it's about leadership of cultural organizations and being very clear about what you stand for. And I think it's been tough times for cultural organizations, particularly in the context of, um, increasing awareness of, uh, you know, our role in doing anti-racist work. Um, the whole bigger backdrop of decolonization debates within the sector. So I think having a very clear position on that and understanding how much of a priority that is in our work is going to be important. And you've got lots of incredibly passionate, committed people in our organizations who want to do that work. And it's important to recognize that needs prioritizing and to that, that that means we won't be doing certain things if we're focusing on these areas that matter.
Speaker 1:Yeah. And I think that point of prior prioritization and focus, that feels like the thing that is present in all of the, the happiest organizations I know, you know, they're very clear on what they're doing and why they're doing it, but equally, they're very clear on what they are not doing. And actually they don't need to burden themselves with constantly scanning every opportunity. Um, they can focus on doing good work in a very specific set of, of areas. So I'm, I'm intrigued now, you know, absolutely. The, the sector is reformed, reshaped by the last two years in many ways. That is interesting and positive, um, in many ways that presents new challenges. Um, but it does feel that the pandemic, you know, blasted a space for digital in a really, um, unequivocal way. And I'm intrigued by your perspective on how teams and individuals and institutions hold that space and sort of continue to, to build on the positives that have, that have emerged from from the last years. You know, how does good stuff continue to be made and shared? How do good conversations continue to happen whilst acknowledging that challenge is very present? Yeah. In, in the, every part of the cultural sector.
Speaker 2:Um, I think keeping hold of that glue that we had during the pandemic that held these teams together, um, that meant we sort of moved away from more siloed cultures to working collectively towards shared goals. Um, that's super important. That's down to how we work, but also having a clear focus for that work. And so the risk of repeating the last bit, um, I think just having a clear set of priorities and focus, um, is how we will continue in in the future to know what the right things are to focus on and what to do that drives most impact. I think what we also saw, which we haven't touched on yet, is, um, people being more data informed and making decisions on a good knowledge and evidence of what is working and using that to make the case for what they prioritize and, and how they work together. So I think that's, that's really important. But also working with what you've got, we are in a different context where there is less money, there are people leaving the sector. So I think that's about working smartly with budgets and with people. Um, in terms of that sort of, you know, budget context, it's, it's really, it is really difficult. The sort of idea that we can do more with less is obviously bonkers. Um, so really working out what is it that we're focusing on and then making sure we're prioritizing what money we've got around those end ends, but also thinking, um, what other funding opportunities might exist that we can draw on. And there was, you know, there has been a moment where there has been quite a bit of investment in the sector, not all of it available to everybody, regrettably, and it, you know, that can be divisive in and of itself, but there is funding out there and thinking more, um, commercially around how we can see some of those opportunities when we've got this sort of dwindling pots of money internally. Um, but the people point is really important. And I think, um, acknowledging that the shape and sizes of our teams might have shifted drastically, but making sure that we are there for prioritizing what we do around the existing shape of our teams rather than an ideal state of all roles being filled rather than running with vacancies, for example. Um, but I think there's such an important point there around our roles as leaders to make sure we're nurturing our teams and looking after them, because as I said at the beginning, they're pretty burnt out and making sure we're thinking about the people on our teams, because without them, none of this could happen. And, and, you know, it's really important to, to, to look after people and and nurturing internal culture that feels supportive, um, that doesn't feel draining, but feels much more nurturing.
Speaker 1:Yeah. Because I think everyone who worked, everyone who works in a cultural institution through the past two years has gone above and beyond, and now suddenly there's, there's been no opportunity to take a breath. Yeah. Um, and I think that does relate to the point you made about not trying to slightly move away from this obsession with always doing the next new thing and really understanding what our audiences are interested in mm-hmm.<affirmative>, and then thinking about what have we done already that we may be able to resurface or recontextualize or sort of repromote that meets those those needs, you know, cultural organizations, it feels are very good of making a thing, sharing it for, you know, five minutes and then moving onto making the next thing. Whereas actually, if you look at, I suppose, commercial content providers, they're very good at taking a piece of content, slicing it up, presenting it differently in different spaces to different audiences. And, you know, this is quite a yucky term, but sweat sweating the assets
Speaker 3:<laugh><laugh>,
Speaker 1:And Oh, you didn't, I did, I did. But, but it feels like actually, you know, to that point about trying to alleviate some of the pressure from the teams, you know, creating something new is always gonna feel is going to, you know, be more work than, you know, taking something that already exists and working out how it can still be useful. Yeah. Um, and that does feel like a sensible response to teams being overworked, teams being smaller. Yeah. They're being less funding around, but also us having this much better sense from the last years of what our digital audiences Yeah. Actually want. I did say sweating assets,<laugh>, I apologize for. Um, and, and just to, to finish, I suppose, and I know that last time I asked you this question, maybe we triggered a, a, uh, a pandemic, but, but in terms of the work of that, that your teams are doing at the vna, you know, as we touched on even through the pandemic, they have launched, you know, huge projects around the collections, around redesigning the, the VNA website, which is amazing, you know, and huge congratulations to, to everyone involved in in those, those pieces of work. But what are you excited about and looking forward to over the next, you know, over the rest of this yet? Maybe let's, let's shorten the horizon to just to the end. Yes. Yeah.<laugh>,
Speaker 2:It's, it was so weird to be asked this question half, many years ago, two years, two and a half years ago. Uh, it feels so different, but I think I still feel optimistic. Um, I think you're right in terms of balancing the need to create digital content and products that we know will work and need to be made versus doing new exciting things. Um, what I'm excited about is thinking about, um, a new opportunity we're exploring around creating a new digital product for kids and kids engagement. And I think it's been a really interesting, uh, response to that moment where we started understanding collectively that digital wasn't just about driving visits to museums. That actually digital engagement is a thing in and of itself, Um, but really thinking about a new audience and a new type of need. Um, and well, not a new type of need, a need, we haven't previously really considered about what kids' engagement could look like online. So that's something we're exploring that I'm very excited about. Um, also thinking, um, continuing to think about the role of, um, immersive and other new technologies that, um, might make a difference in the experience of our buildings, our galleries, our exhibitions. So we're having some interesting conversations on that front. Um, and my role, um, after the pandemic was broadened to look at experience as well as digital. So thinking about taking some of the principles of good UX and, uh, user centered design into thinking how we create experiences in the building. So I'm involved in a project at the moment, looking at our welcome experience, working with a service design partner, looking at how we create, um, a signature experience across all our VNA venues where this exciting moment where the VNA is expanding. And we want to really think, um, strategically about what that means in terms of how we welcome people, not just to those physical buildings, but um, how we show up digitally as well. And underpinning that with a set of experienced principles, um, that can, can, can speak to those very different types of, uh, interactions with a physical or digital, but in a much more consistent holistic way and a meaningful way. Um, so that's an exciting project that I'm, I'm super, um, infused about as to what that might mean in future. And it's, it's exciting to be using some of the principles and the sort of rigor of digital thinking to put that to the context of the building.
Speaker 1:And, and on that final final point, it's, I think again, just before the pandemic, I was seeing chief experience officer, you know, head of, head of experience starting to pop up more so in, in North America than here in Europe. Um, but reflecting on what you said earlier about how more mature organizations seem to, um, have more dispersed sort of digital expertise across the organization, is your perspective that maybe actually more mature organizations also have these experienced focused senior roles so that digital isn't this sort of pillar Yeah. That sits on its own actually. It's, it's a strand of, as you say, that visitor experience and it is a, a sort of a, a potential touch fund potential type of experience that is seen as integral to what the, the institution offers.
Speaker 2:Absolutely. And it's about thinking, thinking in that much more holistic way so that you are really interrogated, pushing yourself to think about what is, you know, in our case, what is a VNA experience and what does that mean, whether you encounter the VNA online or in a building and how can we, I mean, to a certain extent, codify that into a set of principles, but also create useful tools for different teams across the organization to deliver lots of different services in really consistent ways, um, that are much more user centered. Um, and I think that is, that's absolutely a shift that most organizations will be facing into if they haven't already. And most organizations are pretty audience centered, but I think it's about putting experience at the heart of that. It's not just about being audience focused, but thinking about what's the experience we want to provide to those audiences. And those audiences do have very different needs, um, in different venues, uh, buildings online, et cetera, and really understanding what that, what that means for how we do our work, whether that's digital content or products we make, whether those are digital products or products like membership and, and, and exhibitions and how that gets wrapped up into experience so that whatever your interaction is, it's a good one, a meaningful one.
Speaker 1:Well, Kati, I can't wait to see what you do with, uh, with all your new powers
Speaker 2:<laugh>, put it like
Speaker 1:That.<laugh><laugh>. But, but good luck and thank you. Thank you. And I mean, once again, I know how difficult the last two years have have been, so, you know, well done for making
Speaker 2:It through. Well, it would not be without my incredible team who've just done amazing, amazing work and it's all down to them. They're brilliant. Yeah.
Speaker 1:Thank you.
Speaker 2:Thank you, Ash.
